4 ms·

I didn't say anything about possession: I said distribution. Huge difference. I also didn't describe any scenario for prosecution, so I'm not sure what you're

I didn't say anything about possession: I said distribution. Huge difference. I also didn't describe any scenario for prosecution, so I'm not sure what you're referring to when you say that the scenario I describe simply doesn't exist. The only scenario I described was the kind where prosecution doesn't happen. My overall point was that your statement regarding the illegality was wrong: the illegality of distributing classified materials is not based on covenant, it is based on statute. The covenant part gives prosecutors a few extra charges to pile on for people who have clearances, but it's not the main piece. Whether or not such laws are enforceable in a practical sense does not change the fact that distributing classified material is, under current law, illegal regardless of who you are.

rhizome 16y ago
The US does not have a state secrets law the way the UK and others do. If I find a piece of paper on the street, post a scan of it on the chans, then find out it was classified, what law have I broken? If you're going to say The Espionage Act, I don't agree. My understanding is that the prohibition on distribution covers only people who have previously agreed to respect classification.
- lucasjung 16y ago
  If you had no idea it was classified before you distributed it, you probably wouldn't have broken any laws. Given the way classified documents are labeled, that's an incredibly unlikely scenario: classified documents are marked with the classification level on every page and paragraph (individual paragraphs may be classified at a lower level than the overall document), and have cover sheets explaining exactly what the classification level means, which includes a statement warning the reader that anyone can be prosecuted for unauthorized distribution, not just people who have agreed to protect it. So your understanding is wrong: the prohibition extends to everyone. There are also directions for what to do with it if you aren't supposed to have it (e.g. "Return to nearest office of [appropriate federal department or agency].") If the hypothetical piece of paper on the street were a single page marked with a classification level, but without the cover sheet and its explanation, you might be able to argue that you didn't think that you were legally prohibited from distributing that information. Then again, "I didn't know that was illegal, your honor," generally doesn't play well in the courts. IANAL, so I can't tell you what would happen in this situation, but I can tell you that even if you were to avoid conviction the overall experience would probably be time consuming, expensive, and generally unpleasant.
  - rhizome 16y ago
    Please cite the laws under which you propose that people without clearance be prosecuted for viewing Wikileaks releases.
    - lucasjung 16y ago
      Enough with the strawmen: I never said anything about viewing. I keep saying "distribute" and you keep substituting other words like "possess" or "view." Please stop. For that matter, I honestly couldn't tell you which statutes provide for prosecution of non-cleared persons who distribute classified materials. All I can tell you is that every classified document has a cover sheet, and that at least some of those cover sheets specifically state that you can be prosecuted for distributing the contents to unauthorized people, even if you haven't agreed to protect it. It's been a long time since I've seen one, so I don't remember the exact wording but the warnings were stern enough that I remember them being there. Maybe the cover sheets cite a statute, maybe they don't specify. Maybe the whole bit about prosecution is a bluff, but I somehow doubt that an anal-retentive government bureaucracy would print official documents with a bluff that audacious.

rhizome 16y ago

The US does not have a state secrets law the way the UK and others do. If I find a piece of paper on the street, post a scan of it on the chans, then find out it was classified, what law have I broken? If you're going to say The Espionage Act, I don't agree. My understanding is that the prohibition on distribution covers only people who have previously agreed to respect classification.

lucasjung 16y ago
If you had no idea it was classified before you distributed it, you probably wouldn't have broken any laws. Given the way classified documents are labeled, that's an incredibly unlikely scenario: classified documents are marked with the classification level on every page and paragraph (individual paragraphs may be classified at a lower level than the overall document), and have cover sheets explaining exactly what the classification level means, which includes a statement warning the reader that anyone can be prosecuted for unauthorized distribution, not just people who have agreed to protect it. So your understanding is wrong: the prohibition extends to everyone. There are also directions for what to do with it if you aren't supposed to have it (e.g. "Return to nearest office of [appropriate federal department or agency].") If the hypothetical piece of paper on the street were a single page marked with a classification level, but without the cover sheet and its explanation, you might be able to argue that you didn't think that you were legally prohibited from distributing that information. Then again, "I didn't know that was illegal, your honor," generally doesn't play well in the courts. IANAL, so I can't tell you what would happen in this situation, but I can tell you that even if you were to avoid conviction the overall experience would probably be time consuming, expensive, and generally unpleasant.
- rhizome 16y ago
  Please cite the laws under which you propose that people without clearance be prosecuted for viewing Wikileaks releases.
  - lucasjung 16y ago
    Enough with the strawmen: I never said anything about viewing. I keep saying "distribute" and you keep substituting other words like "possess" or "view." Please stop. For that matter, I honestly couldn't tell you which statutes provide for prosecution of non-cleared persons who distribute classified materials. All I can tell you is that every classified document has a cover sheet, and that at least some of those cover sheets specifically state that you can be prosecuted for distributing the contents to unauthorized people, even if you haven't agreed to protect it. It's been a long time since I've seen one, so I don't remember the exact wording but the warnings were stern enough that I remember them being there. Maybe the cover sheets cite a statute, maybe they don't specify. Maybe the whole bit about prosecution is a bluff, but I somehow doubt that an anal-retentive government bureaucracy would print official documents with a bluff that audacious.