5 ms·

Why aren't nests considered tools?

caconym_ 7y ago
From a quick Googling it looks like birds' nest-building techniques can differ by individual and can be learned/shared among social peers. So, yeah, it seems like they maybe should be classified as tools. Contrast this with "fixed action patterns" like the way cats try to bury their shit and piss even to the point of pawing at the smooth floor next to their litterboxes. Superficially it seems like a fairly sophisticated behavior, but it's really a hardwired compulsion. Nest-building might be somewhere in the middle. I don't know if a bird raised with zero socialization is typically capable of building a nest.
- eloff 7y ago
  Ants are interesting in that their use of agriculture predates humans. Somewhat humbling to think that ants with their insignificant insect brains had that figured out for millions of years before our ancestors did.
  - matt-attack 7y ago
    Who’s to say humans didn’t copy the ants? I’ve always been fascinated by what I call “uninventable inventions”. These are things we use commonly but never had the chance to invent ourselves due to their common occurrence in nature. Examples are: the fluid carrying tube (since arteries would easily be observed in killed animals), the sphere (think eye balls), or wings to fly with (i.e. the general shape of a modern jetliner).
    - kortilla 7y ago
      Interestingly the wings on a jetliner (and man-made planes in general) don’t really look anything like wings on birds or insects nor do they function in the same way. In fact, one of the big breakthroughs in flight was to stop trying to make them like birds. Planes fly like birds in the same way that submarines swim like fish, i.e. they don’t.
      - Retric 7y ago
        Many aspects are. A rounded leading edge cross-section and a sharp trailing edge cross-section. Upward slopping Dihedral and rear slopping wing. Tail feathers and aircraft’s tails. Winglets are similar to features on many bird species, though this is most obvious during down flapping.
      - matt-attack 7y ago
        You might be right to 2nd order, but the fact is it's no accident that these two objects look so similar: https://imgur.com/a/dKLQQ2j https://imgur.com/a/dKLQQ2j
        caconym_ 7y ago
        Even better is the similarity between a bird seen side-on in level gliding flight and the same view of a B2. I tried to get an image link to put here but the internet has become impossible to use, so just Google it I guess. It seems that the biggest difference between bird wings and airplane wings is that the former use a bell-shaped (per Prandtl) span loading that induces proverse yaw on on roll and allows them to turn without separate yaw input. The elliptical span loading used by the vast majority of man-made aircraft causes adverse yaw, which is probably the biggest reason most aircraft need rudders. Even the B2 has split-aileron drag rudders at its wingtips for this reason.
        matt-attack 7y ago
        Wow thanks for that! For anyone being lazy, please take a look: https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/dxwi51/b2_stealth_bomber_side_view_1015_x_1027/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/dxwi51/b2_ste...
- pretzell 7y ago
  I'm reading "bachteria to Bach" by Dennett and he talks about this I believe. Birds that are born/raised without their mother can build a species-like nest their first year, and will build a better nest the following year, but will build a better nest the first year if they aren't taken from their mother. So the book talks about learning vs hard wired. The idea in the book is that nest building is both, but seemed quite a bit hard wired
catalogia 7y ago
Maybe they should, but considering nests as such probably make it harder to find animals that don't use tools than those that do. Even many species of fish create nests. Also, I wonder where you'd draw the line. Are borrows a kind of nest? That seems fair, but then are earth worms creating nests when they burrow? Are they using the earth itself as a tool, to conceal themselves from hungry birds? Probably not, that seems like a stretch.. but ants surely create nests. There is also the matter of animals that don't dig their own burrows but do use those dug by other animals. Snakes do this a lot I think, should that be considered tool use? Are the parasitic mites that inhabit unhealthy bee nests using tools? Then there is the matter of animals that create structures using material their own body creates. Are web weaving spiders tool users? What about snails? Or crabs that live in deceased snail shells?
- oneeyedpigeon 7y ago
  > Even many species of fish create nests. There are certainly examples of fish using tools in more 'sophisticated' ways than mere nest-building: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnOYpuKV4H4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnOYpuKV4H4
- alistairSH 7y ago
  There's a line there somewhere. But, I'm not sure which side bird nest building falls. Many birds aren't just making a dirt hole, they're taking whatever material is at hand and "crafting" a well-shaped structure. String, twigs, leaves, hair, etc.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    It does seem a bit odd to me that gorillas, chimpanzees and orangutans build nests in trees, yet the most often cited example of their tool use is fishing for termites with twigs. As far as fashioning things from sticks goes, fishing for termites hardly seems like the pinnacle of their technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nest-building_in_primates#In_hominid_apes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nest-building_in_primates#In_h...
  - pretzell 7y ago
mattigames 7y ago
I think is clear the title is implying adaptive tool use, the bird had a specific need and found a specific tool for it, in the other hand nests are behaviors deeply integrated in the genes of a species seen in almost every member of it even when it doesn't make any sense, that's why 'pet' beavers try to irrationally build dams in places without water.
everdev 7y ago
I'd consider a nest a structure rather than a tool. A mechanical tool usually implies some sort of motion to produce a desired effect.
imvetri 7y ago
Good question which they should question themselves.
- haihaibye 7y ago
  It is difficult to get a scientist to understand something when his claim of novelty depends on his not understanding it.

From a quick Googling it looks like birds' nest-building techniques can differ by individual and can be learned/shared among social peers. So, yeah, it seems like they maybe should be classified as tools. Contrast this with "fixed action patterns" like the way cats try to bury their shit and piss even to the point of pawing at the smooth floor next to their litterboxes. Superficially it seems like a fairly sophisticated behavior, but it's really a hardwired compulsion. Nest-building might be somewhere in the middle. I don't know if a bird raised with zero socialization is typically capable of building a nest.

eloff 7y ago
Ants are interesting in that their use of agriculture predates humans. Somewhat humbling to think that ants with their insignificant insect brains had that figured out for millions of years before our ancestors did.
- matt-attack 7y ago
  Who’s to say humans didn’t copy the ants? I’ve always been fascinated by what I call “uninventable inventions”. These are things we use commonly but never had the chance to invent ourselves due to their common occurrence in nature. Examples are: the fluid carrying tube (since arteries would easily be observed in killed animals), the sphere (think eye balls), or wings to fly with (i.e. the general shape of a modern jetliner).
  - kortilla 7y ago
    Interestingly the wings on a jetliner (and man-made planes in general) don’t really look anything like wings on birds or insects nor do they function in the same way. In fact, one of the big breakthroughs in flight was to stop trying to make them like birds. Planes fly like birds in the same way that submarines swim like fish, i.e. they don’t.
    - Retric 7y ago
      Many aspects are. A rounded leading edge cross-section and a sharp trailing edge cross-section. Upward slopping Dihedral and rear slopping wing. Tail feathers and aircraft’s tails. Winglets are similar to features on many bird species, though this is most obvious during down flapping.
    - matt-attack 7y ago
      You might be right to 2nd order, but the fact is it's no accident that these two objects look so similar: https://imgur.com/a/dKLQQ2j https://imgur.com/a/dKLQQ2j
      - caconym_ 7y ago
        Even better is the similarity between a bird seen side-on in level gliding flight and the same view of a B2. I tried to get an image link to put here but the internet has become impossible to use, so just Google it I guess. It seems that the biggest difference between bird wings and airplane wings is that the former use a bell-shaped (per Prandtl) span loading that induces proverse yaw on on roll and allows them to turn without separate yaw input. The elliptical span loading used by the vast majority of man-made aircraft causes adverse yaw, which is probably the biggest reason most aircraft need rudders. Even the B2 has split-aileron drag rudders at its wingtips for this reason.
        matt-attack 7y ago
        Wow thanks for that! For anyone being lazy, please take a look: https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/dxwi51/b2_stealth_bomber_side_view_1015_x_1027/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MilitaryPorn/comments/dxwi51/b2_ste...
pretzell 7y ago
I'm reading "bachteria to Bach" by Dennett and he talks about this I believe. Birds that are born/raised without their mother can build a species-like nest their first year, and will build a better nest the following year, but will build a better nest the first year if they aren't taken from their mother. So the book talks about learning vs hard wired. The idea in the book is that nest building is both, but seemed quite a bit hard wired

catalogia 7y ago

Maybe they should, but considering nests as such probably make it harder to find animals that don't use tools than those that do. Even many species of fish create nests. Also, I wonder where you'd draw the line. Are borrows a kind of nest? That seems fair, but then are earth worms creating nests when they burrow? Are they using the earth itself as a tool, to conceal themselves from hungry birds? Probably not, that seems like a stretch.. but ants surely create nests. There is also the matter of animals that don't dig their own burrows but do use those dug by other animals. Snakes do this a lot I think, should that be considered tool use? Are the parasitic mites that inhabit unhealthy bee nests using tools? Then there is the matter of animals that create structures using material their own body creates. Are web weaving spiders tool users? What about snails? Or crabs that live in deceased snail shells?

oneeyedpigeon 7y ago
> Even many species of fish create nests. There are certainly examples of fish using tools in more 'sophisticated' ways than mere nest-building: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnOYpuKV4H4 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LnOYpuKV4H4
alistairSH 7y ago
There's a line there somewhere. But, I'm not sure which side bird nest building falls. Many birds aren't just making a dirt hole, they're taking whatever material is at hand and "crafting" a well-shaped structure. String, twigs, leaves, hair, etc.
- catalogia 7y ago
  It does seem a bit odd to me that gorillas, chimpanzees and orangutans build nests in trees, yet the most often cited example of their tool use is fishing for termites with twigs. As far as fashioning things from sticks goes, fishing for termites hardly seems like the pinnacle of their technology. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nest-building_in_primates#In_hominid_apes https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nest-building_in_primates#In_h...
- pretzell 7y ago

mattigames 7y ago

I think is clear the title is implying adaptive tool use, the bird had a specific need and found a specific tool for it, in the other hand nests are behaviors deeply integrated in the genes of a species seen in almost every member of it even when it doesn't make any sense, that's why 'pet' beavers try to irrationally build dams in places without water.

everdev 7y ago

I'd consider a nest a structure rather than a tool. A mechanical tool usually implies some sort of motion to produce a desired effect.

imvetri 7y ago

Good question which they should question themselves.

haihaibye 7y ago
It is difficult to get a scientist to understand something when his claim of novelty depends on his not understanding it.