4 ms·

This is interesting, but raises a question. The article mentions: In San Francisco, vault lights are mostly used to illuminate sub-sidewalk basements — ie. bas

This is interesting, but raises a question. The article mentions: In San Francisco, vault lights are mostly used to illuminate sub-sidewalk basements — ie. basements that extend under the sidewalk. How does this work, legally? Where I live, sidewalks are property of the city (or the HOA, in some cases), and I'd presume the same in SF. Does the title of the sidewalk-adjacent property allow you to excavate N feet beyond the property line? Or is the sidewalk instead a publicly-managed easement on your own property? Who pays for installation and maintenance of the vault lights? How does coordination of engineering/construction of the sidewalk-basement boundary work?

vidanay 7y ago
I would guess these situations pre-date any of the current zoning laws.
- dualboot 7y ago
  This is correct.
Digory 7y ago
It depends on how the lines are drawn. If you want to plow a road through existing houses today, it gets condemned -- taken by the government, lock, stock and barrel. In a new subdivision, they'll often deed the streets over to the city. But sometimes, especially in the old days, the city just got a "right of way," not title to the land. And in that case, the owner could do anything it wanted, so long as it preserves the right of way. So if the city had a right of way to a sidewalk, it doesn't matter what you do under the sidewalk. Here's an interesting discussion about right of way edges that appears to use Washington (State) law.[0] [0] http://mrsc.org/Home/Stay-Informed/MRSC-Insight/November-2017/Understanding-Municipal-Rights-of-Way-From-Center.aspx http://mrsc.org/Home/Stay-Informed/MRSC-Insight/November-201...
yardie 7y ago
That must be a western concept. On the east coast it's common for sidewalks to be owned by the landowner yet have to remain unencumbered for the public right of way. Some owners find out the hard way that they are also responsible for maintaining the sidewalk when the city hits them with a notice.
- ghaff 7y ago
  e.g. keeping them cleared of snow. So if you are traveling and there's a snowstorm you're basically responsible for finding someone who will clear it for you.
- scurvy 7y ago
  Same thing in SF. Owners are responsible for maintaining the sidewalk, and the city will let you know when you need to repair them.
- cr0sh 7y ago
  > Some owners find out the hard way that they are also responsible for maintaining the sidewalk when the city hits them with a notice. I live in Phoenix; in my neighborhood it's basically the same way. City comes around, tears up the sidewalk to fix something (water main or such) - and you the homeowner are responsible for fixing the sidewalk. Yay. About all the city will do is put some asphalt over the bare dirt, but if you want the sidewalk to be concrete, you have to pay for that work. Since a lot of the properties in my neighborhood are rentals, you can guess how often such asphalt patches are properly "fixed". Usually, you have to put in a blight notice to the city to have them contact the actual homeowner to get them to actually fix it properly. One of the downsides living where I do. But then again, I live "below my means" (as an SWE), and I don't have an HOA, and block construction, and I can work on my cars when I want, where I want, how I want. If that means an angle grinder and welder come out at 8pm, so be it. Neighbors can't complain until after 10pm or so, and only then for excessive noise. Take the good with the bad...
  - GhettoMaestro 7y ago
    > I live in Phoenix; in my neighborhood it's basically the same way. City comes around, tears up the sidewalk to fix something (water main or such) - and you the homeowner are responsible for fixing the sidewalk. Yay. What in the holy hell? That's insane and ridiculous. Is this for both residential and commercial? (I could understand the latter slightly more.) Sounds like a great way to piss off your citizens by cutting a very small corner in what is probably already an expensive endeavor.
- 7y ago
booleandilemma 7y ago
I read somewhere (Atlas Obscura?) that there are some hollow sidewalks in NYC, and the sidewalk-adjacent property owners pay for the real estate underneath. To get around this, some owners have sealed off access from their building to the sub-sidewalk spaces, leaving closed off, empty chambers.
tingletech 7y ago
Everywhere I've lived in California, you own to the middle of the street, and the sidewalk and streets are easements. Here in Oakland, the property owner is responsible to maintain the sidewalk even.
celticmusic 7y ago
Property rights don't extend down to the core of the earth unless they're explicit. You have to be careful about this when purchasing land, often times what you're purchasing is the rights down to a certain depth. A great example of this is oil. When an oil company installs a pump, one of the things they have to do is get agreement from everyone who has mineral rights down to the depths where the oil is. This can get extremely messy, and can often involve people who are not technically the land owners. I imagine it's a similar situation here, although it could also be that the city simply has an easement on the land itself.
- IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
  While true, the "certain depth" you speak of is guaranteed to be below the 1" of the article's examples. But it would be interesting how realistic it is to just excavate from your cellar into other territory. Considering quite a few bank heists have succeeded that way, it might well escape detection for a while.

vidanay 7y ago

I would guess these situations pre-date any of the current zoning laws.

dualboot 7y ago
This is correct.

Digory 7y ago

It depends on how the lines are drawn. If you want to plow a road through existing houses today, it gets condemned -- taken by the government, lock, stock and barrel. In a new subdivision, they'll often deed the streets over to the city. But sometimes, especially in the old days, the city just got a "right of way," not title to the land. And in that case, the owner could do anything it wanted, so long as it preserves the right of way. So if the city had a right of way to a sidewalk, it doesn't matter what you do under the sidewalk. Here's an interesting discussion about right of way edges that appears to use Washington (State) law.[0] [0] http://mrsc.org/Home/Stay-Informed/MRSC-Insight/November-2017/Understanding-Municipal-Rights-of-Way-From-Center.aspx http://mrsc.org/Home/Stay-Informed/MRSC-Insight/November-201...

yardie 7y ago

That must be a western concept. On the east coast it's common for sidewalks to be owned by the landowner yet have to remain unencumbered for the public right of way. Some owners find out the hard way that they are also responsible for maintaining the sidewalk when the city hits them with a notice.

ghaff 7y ago
e.g. keeping them cleared of snow. So if you are traveling and there's a snowstorm you're basically responsible for finding someone who will clear it for you.
scurvy 7y ago
Same thing in SF. Owners are responsible for maintaining the sidewalk, and the city will let you know when you need to repair them.
cr0sh 7y ago
> Some owners find out the hard way that they are also responsible for maintaining the sidewalk when the city hits them with a notice. I live in Phoenix; in my neighborhood it's basically the same way. City comes around, tears up the sidewalk to fix something (water main or such) - and you the homeowner are responsible for fixing the sidewalk. Yay. About all the city will do is put some asphalt over the bare dirt, but if you want the sidewalk to be concrete, you have to pay for that work. Since a lot of the properties in my neighborhood are rentals, you can guess how often such asphalt patches are properly "fixed". Usually, you have to put in a blight notice to the city to have them contact the actual homeowner to get them to actually fix it properly. One of the downsides living where I do. But then again, I live "below my means" (as an SWE), and I don't have an HOA, and block construction, and I can work on my cars when I want, where I want, how I want. If that means an angle grinder and welder come out at 8pm, so be it. Neighbors can't complain until after 10pm or so, and only then for excessive noise. Take the good with the bad...
- GhettoMaestro 7y ago
  > I live in Phoenix; in my neighborhood it's basically the same way. City comes around, tears up the sidewalk to fix something (water main or such) - and you the homeowner are responsible for fixing the sidewalk. Yay. What in the holy hell? That's insane and ridiculous. Is this for both residential and commercial? (I could understand the latter slightly more.) Sounds like a great way to piss off your citizens by cutting a very small corner in what is probably already an expensive endeavor.
7y ago

booleandilemma 7y ago

I read somewhere (Atlas Obscura?) that there are some hollow sidewalks in NYC, and the sidewalk-adjacent property owners pay for the real estate underneath. To get around this, some owners have sealed off access from their building to the sub-sidewalk spaces, leaving closed off, empty chambers.

tingletech 7y ago

Everywhere I've lived in California, you own to the middle of the street, and the sidewalk and streets are easements. Here in Oakland, the property owner is responsible to maintain the sidewalk even.

celticmusic 7y ago

Property rights don't extend down to the core of the earth unless they're explicit. You have to be careful about this when purchasing land, often times what you're purchasing is the rights down to a certain depth. A great example of this is oil. When an oil company installs a pump, one of the things they have to do is get agreement from everyone who has mineral rights down to the depths where the oil is. This can get extremely messy, and can often involve people who are not technically the land owners. I imagine it's a similar situation here, although it could also be that the city simply has an easement on the land itself.

IfOnlyYouKnew 7y ago
While true, the "certain depth" you speak of is guaranteed to be below the 1" of the article's examples. But it would be interesting how realistic it is to just excavate from your cellar into other territory. Considering quite a few bank heists have succeeded that way, it might well escape detection for a while.