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Having read The Three Body Problem, I am no longer nearly so excited for our first encounter with an alien civilization...

by beat 7y ago

Loughla 7y ago
I just re-read Rendezvous with Rama yesterday while sick with a cold. Then this story came back up on HN today. What a weird coincidental world.
- pioneerpass 7y ago
  The only thing weird is that people think random confluences of mass-product represent a "weird coincidental world."
- ASalazarMX 7y ago
  Oumuamua visits HN several times a month, though.
- Terretta 7y ago
  https://www.damninteresting.com/the-baader-meinhof-phenomenon https://www.damninteresting.com/the-baader-meinhof-phenomeno...
ghostbrainalpha 7y ago
It's crazy how countless Alien horror movies never dampened our enthusiasm for contact with another civilization, but one half way thought out sci-fi story can completely change your attitude.
- RangerScience 7y ago
  To be fair, alien horror movies are usually less than half-way thought out. A short story that presents an idea, with just enough going on otherwise to support it? Makes sense to me that one would not change your mind and the other would.
nafey 7y ago
This book reads more like a thought experiment than a novel. And it's bone chilling how convincingly it argues for it's vision of the future.
- sushisource 7y ago
  It's a great book but I'm surprised by how many people find the dark forest theory convincing -- it pretty clearly makes this assumption that all (or, at least many) alien civilizations are ruthless, calculating game theorists, and don't share any moral concepts with us. Of course, they don't have to, but I find it unlikely that societies that made it so far wouldn't have the same basic concepts around "don't kill people for less-than-justifiable reasons" as we do. I like the follow up novel Redemption of Time for this reason, it has some passages about maybe there are other galaxies where the dark forest isn't at all the case, and I find that concept about the same level of plausibility.
  - raverbashing 7y ago
    Yeah, I'm pretty surprised how people just bought this idea strongly. How advanced of a civilization you would need to have so that "shooting" into a different solar system is cheap and inconsequential? And you can detect transmissions telling you about one civilization but not where this is being sent from? Doubt The dark forest theory was the underwhelming part of the 3BP series to me.
  - SkyMarshal 7y ago
    Even if you discard the notion of morality as human-only, and assume alien civilizations would not necessarily develop it too, there is still a game-theoretical reason for why the Dark Forest state is not inevitable. The Dark Forest state depends on the resources of the universe being scarce relative to their need/demand by all the sentient species in the universe. In the novels, survival of your species requires killing any other species that would compete with you for those resources. But given the extraordinary abundance of resources in the universe, it's not a given that demand would overwhelm supply so much as to necessitate such an extreme survival strategy. There is a massive amount of matter and energy in the universe. Further it's likely that super-advanced species with the technology to manipulate the Strong Force of matter, as even the relatively less advanced Tri-Solarans could in the novels, will have developed the ability to recycle and reuse resources far more effectively than we have today. The ability to build things using the Strong Force implies the ability to disassemble and reassemble them at the subatomic scale. That pretty much solves all known problems with recycling. Think Star Trek replicators on a massive scale. Now that resource starvation is no longer such a problem for species, participating in continuous mutual destruction of other species is far less optimal. It needlessly increases your own species' danger value to all other species, and the likelihood of being pre-emptively attacked and destroyed, for no good reason. Rather I suspect the optimal strategy is similar to what evolved on earth - develop effective technological deterrents, be they nukes, photoids, or dimensional collapse attacks or whatever, and then don't use them. Their highest value is in your enemies knowing you have them, but that you will not use them unless attacked first. Keep your own threat level relatively low, but without leaving you completely helpless and vulnerable.
atombender 7y ago
Read Blindsight [1] by Peter Watts. A much better book, in my opinion. It's without doubt the most existentially unnerving novel about alien intelligence that I've read. I'm not going to spoil anything, suffice to say that the object that is encountered in space is nothing like anything portrayed in science fiction before. The exploration narrative goes far beyond Clarke's Rama, and Watts poses some very interesting philosophical questions along the way. The book has some minor narrative issues that annoyed me, but still a great read. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Blindsight-Peter-Watts/dp/0765319640 https://www.amazon.com/Blindsight-Peter-Watts/dp/0765319640
- beat 7y ago
  Yes, already read it! I like Three Body Problem better, but Blindsight is excellent.
  - atombender 7y ago
    I find it interesting that so many like Three Body that much! I found it an extremely poorly written book. I think that in the hands of a better writer it could have worked as a Kurt Vonnegut-style satire in the vein of The Sirens of Titans. Some interesting ideas here and there, but overall very disappointing. Mind you, I haven't read the sequels, and did not feel compelled to.
    - beat 7y ago
      The sequels are where it really takes off. The Dark Forest is far more terrifying - one of the darkest SF books I've read. I think cultural differences play into the read a lot, too. It's an intensely Chinese novel, and I'm pretty sure a lot of Americans find his perspectives on history jarring, and want something more "entertaining" and personal.
      - atombender 7y ago
        I'm not American, and there was nothing wrong to me with the book's historical perspective. What I didn't like was the lack of depth; there's barely any characterization or nuance or world-building, and it's written in this juvenile language that makes Haruki Murakami look like Proust. It's so comically bad that I was unsure at first if maybe it was supposed to be a satire and something was lost on me. I've read subsequently that this is how a lot of Chinese fiction is written, so maybe that's just how it is. Sounds like it might be worth reading the rest for the ideas, but there's so much else out there I want to read.
SkyMarshal 7y ago
One of Liu's most interesting ideas regarding aliens observing us was in Ball Lightning, written before Three Body Problem. In Ball Lightning, humans are doing experiments with quantum phenomena. They're doing it deep underground in the most isolated environment on the planet. Yet for some unknown reason the wave function keeps collapsing even though there are no observers present. That's when they realize, there are observers present, just not human. Alien intelligence is spying on their experiment. But shortly after they realize this, the quantum experiments begin functioning as expected, no wave function collapse. The alien observers realize they've exposed themselves, and stop spying on the quantum experiments. That was pretty mind-blowing, especially after learning about the Sophons in Three Body, which were clearly the alien observers in Ball Lightning.
- beat 7y ago
  I just got Ball Lightning for Christmas, so it's on my near-future reading list.
- dragonsngoblins 7y ago
  " The alien observers realize they've exposed themselves, and stop spying on the quantum experiments." What is the point in stopping after you've already been noticed?

Having read The Three Body Problem, I am no longer nearly so excited for our first encounter with an alien civilization...

by beat 7y ago

Having read The Three Body Problem, I am no longer nearly so excited for our first encounter with an alien civilization...

Loughla 7y ago

I just re-read Rendezvous with Rama yesterday while sick with a cold. Then this story came back up on HN today. What a weird coincidental world.

pioneerpass 7y ago
The only thing weird is that people think random confluences of mass-product represent a "weird coincidental world."
ASalazarMX 7y ago
Oumuamua visits HN several times a month, though.
Terretta 7y ago
https://www.damninteresting.com/the-baader-meinhof-phenomenon https://www.damninteresting.com/the-baader-meinhof-phenomeno...

ghostbrainalpha 7y ago

It's crazy how countless Alien horror movies never dampened our enthusiasm for contact with another civilization, but one half way thought out sci-fi story can completely change your attitude.

RangerScience 7y ago
To be fair, alien horror movies are usually less than half-way thought out. A short story that presents an idea, with just enough going on otherwise to support it? Makes sense to me that one would not change your mind and the other would.

nafey 7y ago

This book reads more like a thought experiment than a novel. And it's bone chilling how convincingly it argues for it's vision of the future.

sushisource 7y ago
It's a great book but I'm surprised by how many people find the dark forest theory convincing -- it pretty clearly makes this assumption that all (or, at least many) alien civilizations are ruthless, calculating game theorists, and don't share any moral concepts with us. Of course, they don't have to, but I find it unlikely that societies that made it so far wouldn't have the same basic concepts around "don't kill people for less-than-justifiable reasons" as we do. I like the follow up novel Redemption of Time for this reason, it has some passages about maybe there are other galaxies where the dark forest isn't at all the case, and I find that concept about the same level of plausibility.
- raverbashing 7y ago
  Yeah, I'm pretty surprised how people just bought this idea strongly. How advanced of a civilization you would need to have so that "shooting" into a different solar system is cheap and inconsequential? And you can detect transmissions telling you about one civilization but not where this is being sent from? Doubt The dark forest theory was the underwhelming part of the 3BP series to me.
- SkyMarshal 7y ago
  Even if you discard the notion of morality as human-only, and assume alien civilizations would not necessarily develop it too, there is still a game-theoretical reason for why the Dark Forest state is not inevitable. The Dark Forest state depends on the resources of the universe being scarce relative to their need/demand by all the sentient species in the universe. In the novels, survival of your species requires killing any other species that would compete with you for those resources. But given the extraordinary abundance of resources in the universe, it's not a given that demand would overwhelm supply so much as to necessitate such an extreme survival strategy. There is a massive amount of matter and energy in the universe. Further it's likely that super-advanced species with the technology to manipulate the Strong Force of matter, as even the relatively less advanced Tri-Solarans could in the novels, will have developed the ability to recycle and reuse resources far more effectively than we have today. The ability to build things using the Strong Force implies the ability to disassemble and reassemble them at the subatomic scale. That pretty much solves all known problems with recycling. Think Star Trek replicators on a massive scale. Now that resource starvation is no longer such a problem for species, participating in continuous mutual destruction of other species is far less optimal. It needlessly increases your own species' danger value to all other species, and the likelihood of being pre-emptively attacked and destroyed, for no good reason. Rather I suspect the optimal strategy is similar to what evolved on earth - develop effective technological deterrents, be they nukes, photoids, or dimensional collapse attacks or whatever, and then don't use them. Their highest value is in your enemies knowing you have them, but that you will not use them unless attacked first. Keep your own threat level relatively low, but without leaving you completely helpless and vulnerable.

atombender 7y ago

Read Blindsight [1] by Peter Watts. A much better book, in my opinion. It's without doubt the most existentially unnerving novel about alien intelligence that I've read. I'm not going to spoil anything, suffice to say that the object that is encountered in space is nothing like anything portrayed in science fiction before. The exploration narrative goes far beyond Clarke's Rama, and Watts poses some very interesting philosophical questions along the way. The book has some minor narrative issues that annoyed me, but still a great read. [1] https://www.amazon.com/Blindsight-Peter-Watts/dp/0765319640 https://www.amazon.com/Blindsight-Peter-Watts/dp/0765319640

beat 7y ago
Yes, already read it! I like Three Body Problem better, but Blindsight is excellent.
- atombender 7y ago
  I find it interesting that so many like Three Body that much! I found it an extremely poorly written book. I think that in the hands of a better writer it could have worked as a Kurt Vonnegut-style satire in the vein of The Sirens of Titans. Some interesting ideas here and there, but overall very disappointing. Mind you, I haven't read the sequels, and did not feel compelled to.
  - beat 7y ago
    The sequels are where it really takes off. The Dark Forest is far more terrifying - one of the darkest SF books I've read. I think cultural differences play into the read a lot, too. It's an intensely Chinese novel, and I'm pretty sure a lot of Americans find his perspectives on history jarring, and want something more "entertaining" and personal.
    - atombender 7y ago
      I'm not American, and there was nothing wrong to me with the book's historical perspective. What I didn't like was the lack of depth; there's barely any characterization or nuance or world-building, and it's written in this juvenile language that makes Haruki Murakami look like Proust. It's so comically bad that I was unsure at first if maybe it was supposed to be a satire and something was lost on me. I've read subsequently that this is how a lot of Chinese fiction is written, so maybe that's just how it is. Sounds like it might be worth reading the rest for the ideas, but there's so much else out there I want to read.

SkyMarshal 7y ago

One of Liu's most interesting ideas regarding aliens observing us was in Ball Lightning, written before Three Body Problem. In Ball Lightning, humans are doing experiments with quantum phenomena. They're doing it deep underground in the most isolated environment on the planet. Yet for some unknown reason the wave function keeps collapsing even though there are no observers present. That's when they realize, there are observers present, just not human. Alien intelligence is spying on their experiment. But shortly after they realize this, the quantum experiments begin functioning as expected, no wave function collapse. The alien observers realize they've exposed themselves, and stop spying on the quantum experiments. That was pretty mind-blowing, especially after learning about the Sophons in Three Body, which were clearly the alien observers in Ball Lightning.

beat 7y ago
I just got Ball Lightning for Christmas, so it's on my near-future reading list.
dragonsngoblins 7y ago
" The alien observers realize they've exposed themselves, and stop spying on the quantum experiments." What is the point in stopping after you've already been noticed?