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Bio-fuels are a disaster for the environment due to land-use requirements because this isn't a very efficient method of getting and storing energy. With biofuel

Bio-fuels are a disaster for the environment due to land-use requirements because this isn't a very efficient method of getting and storing energy. With biofuels, not only do we need to grow corn to feed the population and livestock but now we need to grow corn so we can burn it in ICEs. We marginally reduce carbon emissions but kill the environment.

carapace 7y ago
That's a good point that Farmer Dave addresses in the book: this ACBAG model is totally different than large-scale biofuel production. The integrated farm permits high-efficiency closed loops. For example the leftovers (DDGs or whatever they're called) from fermentation can be fed to livestock. Or used to culture mushrooms and then fed to livestock (after the mushroom crop is harvested.) All the nutrients and trace minerals stay on the farm: the molecules of alcohol are made from atoms that come from the air and water. In effect the farm is exporting sunshine in the form of reconfigured air and water.
- jiofih 7y ago
  That doesn’t touch the land use or efficiency problem. Solar and wind power makes a ton more sense.
  - carapace 7y ago
    Well, yeah, if you can afford it buy solar panels and wind turbines and batteries. That's terrific! (No sarcasm, I'm sincere.) In the medium- and long-term we should transition to all-electric vehicles with renewable and atomic power. But there's a huge existing fleet of internal-combustion engines in vehicles, generators, and tools like chainsaws and leaf blowers, etc. A locally-produced ecologically benign carbon-neutral fuel source is an important part of the solution, eh? As for efficiency, consider: Scenario A: grow a crop of corn and feed it to pigs. Scenario B: grow a crop of corn ferment it and extract the alcohol and feed the leftovers to pigs. In B you get two crops for the price of one. (Alcohol is produced by yeast from sugar. The leftovers are protein, the bodies of the yeast. The corn is a better feed after fermentation and alcohol extraction.) As for land use in a permaculture farm you would be growing more than one crop on the same land at the same time. You might have two or three crops that produce food and some yams or sugar beets for fermentation. Also, a lot of things you might not realize can be feedstocks. Pretty much anything with sugar or starch. Farmer Dave had a deal with a donut bakery to get their scrap dough for fermentation and fuel production.
    - jiofih 7y ago
      I suggest you try to put the plan down on paper to realize it’s feasibility. Farm equipment is far more expensive than solar panels and batteries, not to mention the amount of man power to deal with the scale needed for fuel production. Plus the extraction equipment. In option B you end up with a shit ton of fermented waste. The amount you’ll have to grow for fuel will feed 20x more animals than you’d have in a local/small farm. You’ll need a lot more land than usual to try this. The soil will be depleted in a few years even if you try crop rotation as your options are limited for fuel production. Unless you show me an example of this system working I’m very skeptic, a lot of wishful thinking.
      - carapace 7y ago
        > I suggest you try to put the plan down on paper to realize it’s feasibility. Dude, there's a whole book about it. > an example of this system working And, yes, Farmer Dave did it. For all I know he's doing it right now. I haven't talked to him in years. You can contact him right now and ask him to put you in touch with the people who are already doing this.

carapace 7y ago

That's a good point that Farmer Dave addresses in the book: this ACBAG model is totally different than large-scale biofuel production. The integrated farm permits high-efficiency closed loops. For example the leftovers (DDGs or whatever they're called) from fermentation can be fed to livestock. Or used to culture mushrooms and then fed to livestock (after the mushroom crop is harvested.) All the nutrients and trace minerals stay on the farm: the molecules of alcohol are made from atoms that come from the air and water. In effect the farm is exporting sunshine in the form of reconfigured air and water.

jiofih 7y ago
That doesn’t touch the land use or efficiency problem. Solar and wind power makes a ton more sense.
- carapace 7y ago
  Well, yeah, if you can afford it buy solar panels and wind turbines and batteries. That's terrific! (No sarcasm, I'm sincere.) In the medium- and long-term we should transition to all-electric vehicles with renewable and atomic power. But there's a huge existing fleet of internal-combustion engines in vehicles, generators, and tools like chainsaws and leaf blowers, etc. A locally-produced ecologically benign carbon-neutral fuel source is an important part of the solution, eh? As for efficiency, consider: Scenario A: grow a crop of corn and feed it to pigs. Scenario B: grow a crop of corn ferment it and extract the alcohol and feed the leftovers to pigs. In B you get two crops for the price of one. (Alcohol is produced by yeast from sugar. The leftovers are protein, the bodies of the yeast. The corn is a better feed after fermentation and alcohol extraction.) As for land use in a permaculture farm you would be growing more than one crop on the same land at the same time. You might have two or three crops that produce food and some yams or sugar beets for fermentation. Also, a lot of things you might not realize can be feedstocks. Pretty much anything with sugar or starch. Farmer Dave had a deal with a donut bakery to get their scrap dough for fermentation and fuel production.
  - jiofih 7y ago
    I suggest you try to put the plan down on paper to realize it’s feasibility. Farm equipment is far more expensive than solar panels and batteries, not to mention the amount of man power to deal with the scale needed for fuel production. Plus the extraction equipment. In option B you end up with a shit ton of fermented waste. The amount you’ll have to grow for fuel will feed 20x more animals than you’d have in a local/small farm. You’ll need a lot more land than usual to try this. The soil will be depleted in a few years even if you try crop rotation as your options are limited for fuel production. Unless you show me an example of this system working I’m very skeptic, a lot of wishful thinking.
    - carapace 7y ago
      > I suggest you try to put the plan down on paper to realize it’s feasibility. Dude, there's a whole book about it. > an example of this system working And, yes, Farmer Dave did it. For all I know he's doing it right now. I haven't talked to him in years. You can contact him right now and ask him to put you in touch with the people who are already doing this.