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> Allow users to votekick and voteban. Provide the server software for players to host their own servers and provide their own solutions to these problems. How

> Allow users to votekick and voteban. Provide the server software for players to host their own servers and provide their own solutions to these problems. How would that work in case of MMORPG with open world ? One clan would votekick competing clan? Any group votekick whoever they want? Or in case of FPS games lets vote to kick player X because he is just too good (killing us all) so he is cheating for sure? > Provide the server software for players to host their own servers and provide their own solutions to these problems. Dosen't apply for most MMO games.

anonymousab 7y ago
The false positive of someone getting kicked for being too good is a better negative outcome than the false positive of a ban, especially in an opaque system with poor support staffing and resolution processes. When users can trivially provide and administrate and experiment with their own servers, then the effect of not being able to return to the same server is lessened. >MMO games They're a different beast entirely. But in the case of battlefield, you have a capped playercount that is orders of magnitude smaller than an MMO, and much more manageable.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- zttxc 7y ago
  You have no idea of how much a votekick system will get abused. Nobody would ever seriously consider such a system in 2020. Teammates will kick you out for stealing kills from them. Teammates will leave bots on even if they are flagrant bots if they are helping the team. Enemies will kick you out if you are too good.
  - jeltz 7y ago
    Why would it be abused more today? It was not abused that much back when I played Quake 1 and Quake 2.
    - hinkley 7y ago
      I believe the loot system changes in WoW were inspired by occurrences of groups of people joining matchmaking together, then kicking a person after the boss died and taking all the stuff for themselves. I only saw this sort of behavior firsthand once or twice, but I’ve heard from others who thought it was widespread.
      - zttxc 7y ago
        And in WoW too, given how the honor rank system works, imagine if people could kick others from battlegrounds: they would kick those with higher ranks so they could climb the ranks faster themselves.
        Nullabillity 7y ago
        So.. don't design systems that encourage toxic behaviour? In the case of WoW, they realized their mistake and ripped out the global PvP ladder over a decade ago.
        zttxz 7y ago
        Classic has the ladder again :)
        catalogia 7y ago
        Then don't buy it! If the product is known to be defective, resist the marketing and be a savvy consumer who doesn't buy products known to be faulty!
  - anonymousab 7y ago
    I play in custom servers for plenty of games that have vote kick and ban systems. The games themselves may be old, but the players range from fresh to old guard. Valve FPS games were / are particularly good for this. >Teammates will kick you out for stealing kills from them Then you find another server that has fostered a better community. Or even start your own. Even if the ratio of absolute mean-spirited jerks to decent players was 10:1, that's more than enough well intentioned players to foster good server communities. But I suspect the actual number is closer to a reversed amount. Obviously MMOs would be a different beast, but the type of cheating you're trying to defeat - the threat model - is often different than wallhacking autoaimers.
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - zttxz 7y ago
      Sorry, I am talking about MMOs exclusively. Some of those also have you compete not only against the enemy team but also against your own team for ranks
  - briffle 7y ago
    I play many games that still have vote/kick. (Most often, Insurgency). The 2 most common vote kicks are an idle player that is the last player left on a team, and the guy sniping with a 40/3 K/D ratio, and a ping of > 300ms, that doesn't respond to any chat or voice chat, etc.
  - catalogia 7y ago
    > "You have no idea of how much a votekick system will get abused." Votekick systems used to work great for many games. They don't work in games with global ranking systems because those ranking systems create toxic incentives. Once games become "serious business" instead of casual fun, the knives come out.
  - perl4ever 7y ago
    http://bash.org/?178890 http://bash.org/?178890
WorldMaker 7y ago
> How would that work in case of MMORPG with open world ? One clan would votekick competing clan? Any group votekick whoever they want? Checks and balances. It's a political problem at that point. MUDs had sometimes very traditional political institutions for bans/player behavior issues, and the same can directly apply to MMOs: "councils of multiple clans", for instance. You can already think of most corporations running MMOs as "BFDLs" (benevolent dictators for life) and there's good reason to ask them to add juries/trials for a more open democratic process to bans, as one common political solution to dictatorship. The same obviously goes the other direction that if players want more involvement in bans/kicks, they need structures like juries/trials to keep things transparent and to bubble up such issues as appropriate. You can't always solve political problems with technical solutions, but more importantly sometimes technical problems have good political solutions. >> Provide the server software for players to host their own servers and provide their own solutions to these problems. > Dosen't apply for most MMO games. Arguably it should. At the very least for long term archival, MMO games should feel more pressure to provide server software access to players to host their own servers. There's also a lot of interesting history associated with MMOs that had open servers (many MUDs), or reverse engineered server shards (things like various Ultima Online player-created shards). Even if most players would prefer a "canon" experience in BFDL hosted shards, that isn't necessarily a strong reason to avoid offering players a choice to host their own servers. Arguably most good MMOs hosting your own server cluster is a great amount of effort and would be A) self-limiting (only certain groups of players would have the combo of resources/interests/skills), and B) at least somewhat useful to the game owner themselves as a form of CI/CD test (if other people can reproduce your Production environment you are more resilient against possible mistakes/failures in your Production environment).
- munk-a 7y ago
  MUDs, while wonderful, occasionally devolved into closed ecosystems where RP enforcement and opinions ended up creating a toxic community with the playerbase eventually shrinking to nothing. MUDs are amazing but I think they're a bad example to call on in this case.
  - WorldMaker 7y ago

anonymousab 7y ago

The false positive of someone getting kicked for being too good is a better negative outcome than the false positive of a ban, especially in an opaque system with poor support staffing and resolution processes. When users can trivially provide and administrate and experiment with their own servers, then the effect of not being able to return to the same server is lessened. >MMO games They're a different beast entirely. But in the case of battlefield, you have a capped playercount that is orders of magnitude smaller than an MMO, and much more manageable.

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
zttxc 7y ago
You have no idea of how much a votekick system will get abused. Nobody would ever seriously consider such a system in 2020. Teammates will kick you out for stealing kills from them. Teammates will leave bots on even if they are flagrant bots if they are helping the team. Enemies will kick you out if you are too good.
- jeltz 7y ago
  Why would it be abused more today? It was not abused that much back when I played Quake 1 and Quake 2.
  - hinkley 7y ago
    I believe the loot system changes in WoW were inspired by occurrences of groups of people joining matchmaking together, then kicking a person after the boss died and taking all the stuff for themselves. I only saw this sort of behavior firsthand once or twice, but I’ve heard from others who thought it was widespread.
    - zttxc 7y ago
      And in WoW too, given how the honor rank system works, imagine if people could kick others from battlegrounds: they would kick those with higher ranks so they could climb the ranks faster themselves.
      - Nullabillity 7y ago
        So.. don't design systems that encourage toxic behaviour? In the case of WoW, they realized their mistake and ripped out the global PvP ladder over a decade ago.
        zttxz 7y ago
        Classic has the ladder again :)
        catalogia 7y ago
        Then don't buy it! If the product is known to be defective, resist the marketing and be a savvy consumer who doesn't buy products known to be faulty!
- anonymousab 7y ago
  I play in custom servers for plenty of games that have vote kick and ban systems. The games themselves may be old, but the players range from fresh to old guard. Valve FPS games were / are particularly good for this. >Teammates will kick you out for stealing kills from them Then you find another server that has fostered a better community. Or even start your own. Even if the ratio of absolute mean-spirited jerks to decent players was 10:1, that's more than enough well intentioned players to foster good server communities. But I suspect the actual number is closer to a reversed amount. Obviously MMOs would be a different beast, but the type of cheating you're trying to defeat - the threat model - is often different than wallhacking autoaimers.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - zttxz 7y ago
    Sorry, I am talking about MMOs exclusively. Some of those also have you compete not only against the enemy team but also against your own team for ranks
- briffle 7y ago
  I play many games that still have vote/kick. (Most often, Insurgency). The 2 most common vote kicks are an idle player that is the last player left on a team, and the guy sniping with a 40/3 K/D ratio, and a ping of > 300ms, that doesn't respond to any chat or voice chat, etc.
- catalogia 7y ago
  > "You have no idea of how much a votekick system will get abused." Votekick systems used to work great for many games. They don't work in games with global ranking systems because those ranking systems create toxic incentives. Once games become "serious business" instead of casual fun, the knives come out.
- perl4ever 7y ago
  http://bash.org/?178890 http://bash.org/?178890

WorldMaker 7y ago

> How would that work in case of MMORPG with open world ? One clan would votekick competing clan? Any group votekick whoever they want? Checks and balances. It's a political problem at that point. MUDs had sometimes very traditional political institutions for bans/player behavior issues, and the same can directly apply to MMOs: "councils of multiple clans", for instance. You can already think of most corporations running MMOs as "BFDLs" (benevolent dictators for life) and there's good reason to ask them to add juries/trials for a more open democratic process to bans, as one common political solution to dictatorship. The same obviously goes the other direction that if players want more involvement in bans/kicks, they need structures like juries/trials to keep things transparent and to bubble up such issues as appropriate. You can't always solve political problems with technical solutions, but more importantly sometimes technical problems have good political solutions. >> Provide the server software for players to host their own servers and provide their own solutions to these problems. > Dosen't apply for most MMO games. Arguably it should. At the very least for long term archival, MMO games should feel more pressure to provide server software access to players to host their own servers. There's also a lot of interesting history associated with MMOs that had open servers (many MUDs), or reverse engineered server shards (things like various Ultima Online player-created shards). Even if most players would prefer a "canon" experience in BFDL hosted shards, that isn't necessarily a strong reason to avoid offering players a choice to host their own servers. Arguably most good MMOs hosting your own server cluster is a great amount of effort and would be A) self-limiting (only certain groups of players would have the combo of resources/interests/skills), and B) at least somewhat useful to the game owner themselves as a form of CI/CD test (if other people can reproduce your Production environment you are more resilient against possible mistakes/failures in your Production environment).

munk-a 7y ago
MUDs, while wonderful, occasionally devolved into closed ecosystems where RP enforcement and opinions ended up creating a toxic community with the playerbase eventually shrinking to nothing. MUDs are amazing but I think they're a bad example to call on in this case.
- WorldMaker 7y ago