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I am not eager to clean bathrooms on my first day as a software developer. Relevance to my job title, which is important to me for both self-fulfillment and car

by jarek 16y ago

I am not eager to clean bathrooms on my first day as a software developer. Relevance to my job title, which is important to me for both self-fulfillment and career management reasons, is a big part of why. I am eager to create software, and I understand this includes the mentally dirty parts. If I was eager to get physically dirty I'd go and make more money for an easier job at the tar sands. You want someone who will do whatever you pay them to do, hire a cocker spaniel. [1] [1] http://www.google.com/search?q=%22hire+a+cocker+spaniel%22 http://www.google.com/search?q=%22hire+a+cocker+spaniel%22

scott_s 16y ago
It's Friday evening. You and your team will be at the office through the weekend to finish a release. The toilet backed up, spilling onto the bathroom floor. The building's cleaning staff will not be around until Monday, and there is no protocol for emergencies. Will you clean the bathroom? What I have done is contrive a plausible scenario where cleaning the bathroom is something that just has to get done in order for you to fulfill your stated role as a software developer. I agree with edw519's point and that of the article author's: leaders get done what has to get done regardless of what it is. Sometimes that means crawling around on your hands and knees stringing along ethernet cords. Sometimes that means implementing boring but necessary infrastructure code. Sometimes that means cleaning the bathroom.
- jarek 16y ago
  > Will you clean the bathroom? Yes. (Though I better be getting paid overtime for that weekend work if the schedule slip isn't the dev team's fault.) There is a large difference between cleaning a bathroom in an emergency on a Friday evening and cleaning a bathroom because the boss wants to test you on a Monday morning. Are you assuming that just because someone cleaned it when their boss forced them to as condition of continued employment, they will step up and volunteer to do it in the future rather than try to pawn it off on someone else? Are you assuming the inverse is also true? This has very little to do with leadership, by the way. -- edit: If I come in for my first day on a Monday morning and the boss tells me that the team is scrambling to finish up a release, the toilet is backed up, and the cleaning staff won't be here until the evening, I'll look at him weird and maybe not think highly of his organizational skills, but I'd be much more likely to help than in the case of being asked to clean just to see if I am willing to put up with shit.
  - alnayyir 16y ago
    >(Though I better be getting paid overtime for that weekend work if the schedule slip isn't the dev team's fault.) Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha... catches breath ...hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahha Not worked long in software eh?
    - jarek 16y ago
      Long enough to learn to say "no."
      - alnayyir 16y ago
        In my country, programmers work salary unless they're contractors and don't have any conception of overtime in their contracts. Maybe things are different where you are.
        jarek 16y ago
        I'm paid salary and I'm under the impression that's the norm. Nevertheless there is a fairly standard work week and more than one way of compensation for exceeding that.
        alnayyir 16y ago
        >there is a fairly standard work week and more than one way of compensation for exceeding that. I call it a raise or a promotion. Or keeping your job for doing it. You're salaried at a particular rate under the assumption that step up to the plate in case of emergency/deadline, otherwise they'd pay you less or pay you hourly. Which kind goes back to edw's anecdote about his dad. Rising to the occasion.
        jarek 16y ago
        At my workplace we've been offered incentive bonuses or additional paid vacation time in addition to standard raises/promotions, but hey, whatever works for you and your employer. I doubt accepting unnecessary unrelated busywork is very strongly correlated with "rising to the occasion," unless the occasions are death marches.
cabose07 16y ago
Yea seriously, maybe if I was right out of college I would consider it but I seriously doubt that. My talents are better utilized doing other things and unless you are paying me a considerable amount of money you can clean the bathroom yourself. I happen to work for a company in the top 10 best places to work for in IT and something like that would never ever be expected or asked period, not even on a principle base.
mcherm 16y ago
This whole thread strongly convinces me that this approach was an excellent one. I'm sorry, Jarek: you may be an excellent software developer, but I'd rather hire someone else. Because in my OWN years as a software developer I have found that my willingness to do whatever needed doing has made as much difference as my skill at writing and maintaining difficult programs. Sure, most other people didn't have the skills to do the latter. But most people didn't have the WILL to do the former, and both have made a huge difference for one reason or another.
- jarek 16y ago
  That's fair enough. That's your decision. I would rather work for someone else. The original test is a false indicator with only mild correlation to any characteristic useful in a professional work setting and plenty of room for false positives.

by jarek 16y ago

scott_s 16y ago

It's Friday evening. You and your team will be at the office through the weekend to finish a release. The toilet backed up, spilling onto the bathroom floor. The building's cleaning staff will not be around until Monday, and there is no protocol for emergencies. Will you clean the bathroom? What I have done is contrive a plausible scenario where cleaning the bathroom is something that just has to get done in order for you to fulfill your stated role as a software developer. I agree with edw519's point and that of the article author's: leaders get done what has to get done regardless of what it is. Sometimes that means crawling around on your hands and knees stringing along ethernet cords. Sometimes that means implementing boring but necessary infrastructure code. Sometimes that means cleaning the bathroom.

jarek 16y ago
> Will you clean the bathroom? Yes. (Though I better be getting paid overtime for that weekend work if the schedule slip isn't the dev team's fault.) There is a large difference between cleaning a bathroom in an emergency on a Friday evening and cleaning a bathroom because the boss wants to test you on a Monday morning. Are you assuming that just because someone cleaned it when their boss forced them to as condition of continued employment, they will step up and volunteer to do it in the future rather than try to pawn it off on someone else? Are you assuming the inverse is also true? This has very little to do with leadership, by the way. -- edit: If I come in for my first day on a Monday morning and the boss tells me that the team is scrambling to finish up a release, the toilet is backed up, and the cleaning staff won't be here until the evening, I'll look at him weird and maybe not think highly of his organizational skills, but I'd be much more likely to help than in the case of being asked to clean just to see if I am willing to put up with shit.
- alnayyir 16y ago
  >(Though I better be getting paid overtime for that weekend work if the schedule slip isn't the dev team's fault.) Hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahaha... catches breath ...hahahahahahahahahahahahahaahha Not worked long in software eh?
  - jarek 16y ago
    Long enough to learn to say "no."
    - alnayyir 16y ago
      In my country, programmers work salary unless they're contractors and don't have any conception of overtime in their contracts. Maybe things are different where you are.
      - jarek 16y ago
        I'm paid salary and I'm under the impression that's the norm. Nevertheless there is a fairly standard work week and more than one way of compensation for exceeding that.
        alnayyir 16y ago
        >there is a fairly standard work week and more than one way of compensation for exceeding that. I call it a raise or a promotion. Or keeping your job for doing it. You're salaried at a particular rate under the assumption that step up to the plate in case of emergency/deadline, otherwise they'd pay you less or pay you hourly. Which kind goes back to edw's anecdote about his dad. Rising to the occasion.
        jarek 16y ago
        At my workplace we've been offered incentive bonuses or additional paid vacation time in addition to standard raises/promotions, but hey, whatever works for you and your employer. I doubt accepting unnecessary unrelated busywork is very strongly correlated with "rising to the occasion," unless the occasions are death marches.

cabose07 16y ago

Yea seriously, maybe if I was right out of college I would consider it but I seriously doubt that. My talents are better utilized doing other things and unless you are paying me a considerable amount of money you can clean the bathroom yourself. I happen to work for a company in the top 10 best places to work for in IT and something like that would never ever be expected or asked period, not even on a principle base.

mcherm 16y ago

This whole thread strongly convinces me that this approach was an excellent one. I'm sorry, Jarek: you may be an excellent software developer, but I'd rather hire someone else. Because in my OWN years as a software developer I have found that my willingness to do whatever needed doing has made as much difference as my skill at writing and maintaining difficult programs. Sure, most other people didn't have the skills to do the latter. But most people didn't have the WILL to do the former, and both have made a huge difference for one reason or another.

jarek 16y ago
That's fair enough. That's your decision. I would rather work for someone else. The original test is a false indicator with only mild correlation to any characteristic useful in a professional work setting and plenty of room for false positives.