4 ms·

Very true point, China has a good record of gender equality. Much better then it's neighbors and also the West.

by c2 16y ago

Helianthus16 16y ago
Foot binding? Not saying things might not be generally 'equal' for women in China now, but things are generally 'equal' for women in the West. For certain values of generally. Seems to me societies have traditionally objectified/oppressed women world over.
- psykotic 16y ago
  > Foot binding? One unequivocally positive outcome of the communists winning over the nationalists that even an ardent anti-communist like Jung Chang will attest to was their gender equality reforms. The first and most symbolic act was a serious crackdown on foot binding.
  - Helianthus16 16y ago
    Yeah, and the first act of the Indian intelligentsia was against sati. It's easy to be against the most obviously wrong. My point wasn't that reform hasn't happened, my point was objecting to the casual generalization of China as currently superior to the West in gender equality--by demonstrating the concrete sexism of the past. Having ruled out the past since both West and China infringe gratuitously, what do we really _know_ about gender equality in China in the present day? And I am the sort of person for whom a gender equality rating is strongly influenced by high ratings in tolerance for homosexuality and other non-gender-norm labels.
    - psykotic 16y ago
      > Having ruled out the past since both West and China infringe gratuitously, what do we really _know_ about gender equality in China in the present day? A third of China's millionaires are female. We know concrete facts like that. Guanxi rules business in China, so it would have been very easy to keep women entirely out of the higher echelons had the culture been predisposed to do so. That said, there is still, for example, plenty of low-level sexual harassment against women that wouldn't be tolerated in most of the West.
      - Helianthus16 16y ago
        In other words, China has much the same problems as the West and much the same successes. I posted in response to the statement "Much better then it's neighbors and also the West." My point about foot-binding might have been off-topic, actually; I was trying to demonstrate that both cultures have, err, regrets about gender inequality in the past.
        psykotic 16y ago
        > In other words, China has much the same problems as the West and much the same successes. One has to be careful comparing these things on a linear scale. But yes, I agree. Beyond the context of our immediate discussion, the equality of men and women in China is noteworthy because it contradicts the still-commonplace orientalist conception that Asian women are submissive.
        Helianthus16 16y ago
        I wasn't using a linear scale; I was in fact rather pointing out that one shouldn't, and even if one did one could hardly conclude China was more advanced. Now we're getting a bit off-topic, so I'm going to close with the idea that women in China could still be considered largely submissive if the ratio is a third instead of a half if one were to really press the viewpoint asking "In what ways could gender equality improve?" but that's a bit of devil's advocacy I'm ready to let fall silent. ;)
Joakal 16y ago
They have over 30 million more males than females. The Chinese may have equality, but that's a lot of sexually frustrated men that's going to contribute to unrest.
- notahacker 16y ago
  Since that ratio is in part the consequence of a pretty strong parental preference for male heirs, it's also a pretty good indicator that traditional attitudes die hard.
- sandal 16y ago
  You do realize that's less than a 3% difference, right?
  - MrFoof 16y ago
    Additionally, don't most countries have more men than women? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_ratio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_ratio
    - burgerbrain 16y ago
      No, just the opposite. Most countries have more women than men. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sex_ratio_total_population_per_country_smooth.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sex_ratio_total_population... Edit: check out that big red country on this one...: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Sex_ratio_below_15_per_country_smooth.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Sex_ratio...
    - roel_v 16y ago
      Only at birth. Men die faster than women, so most countries in the world have more women than men.
  - jhamburger 16y ago
    Bottom line, it's still 30 million guys not getting laid (or married, at least). I think this is an instance where the raw number is important.
spamizbad 16y ago
I would dispute this - China did not permit women to own land until 1950. Furthermore, laws against domestic violence weren't enshrined until 2001. China certainly has been liberalizing its gender laws at a faster clip than the west, which took the Women's Suffrage Movement several centuries.... but it's never been ahead of the curve.
- angus77 16y ago
  Interesting. Japan's never been a country that people would hold up as an example for gender equality, but women have always been "permitted" to own property---"permitted" as in: they never had that right taken away from them, and thus never had to fight to have it (in contrast to both China and the West).
- widgetycrank 16y ago
  >China did not permit women to own land until 1950. After 1950 men were not permitted to own land either. :P edit: In some ways China should really be looked at as two distinct demographics, urban and rural. They have vast different values that makes the country completely bipolar. The gender attitude among the urbanites are much more progressive, in some ways even more so than the west, while in the countryside they still practice infanticide. It may have to do with the fact that the communist ideology campaigns mostly targeted the cities, because Mao feared a bourgeoisie counter-revolution, while he already had grass root support from the countryside, so he took it for granted.
  - gbog 16y ago
    This view on maoism and the infanticide allegation seem ungrounded to me. I know some alpha-males in China and they don't buy bags, they climb montains or sing in a punk band, like their mates in the West
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
    - widgetycrank 16y ago

Very true point, China has a good record of gender equality. Much better then it's neighbors and also the West.

by c2 16y ago

Very true point, China has a good record of gender equality. Much better then it's neighbors and also the West.

Foot binding? Not saying things might not be generally 'equal' for women in China now, but things are generally 'equal' for women in the West. For certain values of generally. Seems to me societies have traditionally objectified/oppressed women world over.

psykotic 16y ago
> Foot binding? One unequivocally positive outcome of the communists winning over the nationalists that even an ardent anti-communist like Jung Chang will attest to was their gender equality reforms. The first and most symbolic act was a serious crackdown on foot binding.
- Helianthus16 16y ago
  Yeah, and the first act of the Indian intelligentsia was against sati. It's easy to be against the most obviously wrong. My point wasn't that reform hasn't happened, my point was objecting to the casual generalization of China as currently superior to the West in gender equality--by demonstrating the concrete sexism of the past. Having ruled out the past since both West and China infringe gratuitously, what do we really _know_ about gender equality in China in the present day? And I am the sort of person for whom a gender equality rating is strongly influenced by high ratings in tolerance for homosexuality and other non-gender-norm labels.
  - psykotic 16y ago
    > Having ruled out the past since both West and China infringe gratuitously, what do we really _know_ about gender equality in China in the present day? A third of China's millionaires are female. We know concrete facts like that. Guanxi rules business in China, so it would have been very easy to keep women entirely out of the higher echelons had the culture been predisposed to do so. That said, there is still, for example, plenty of low-level sexual harassment against women that wouldn't be tolerated in most of the West.
    - Helianthus16 16y ago
      In other words, China has much the same problems as the West and much the same successes. I posted in response to the statement "Much better then it's neighbors and also the West." My point about foot-binding might have been off-topic, actually; I was trying to demonstrate that both cultures have, err, regrets about gender inequality in the past.
      - psykotic 16y ago
        > In other words, China has much the same problems as the West and much the same successes. One has to be careful comparing these things on a linear scale. But yes, I agree. Beyond the context of our immediate discussion, the equality of men and women in China is noteworthy because it contradicts the still-commonplace orientalist conception that Asian women are submissive.
        Helianthus16 16y ago
        I wasn't using a linear scale; I was in fact rather pointing out that one shouldn't, and even if one did one could hardly conclude China was more advanced. Now we're getting a bit off-topic, so I'm going to close with the idea that women in China could still be considered largely submissive if the ratio is a third instead of a half if one were to really press the viewpoint asking "In what ways could gender equality improve?" but that's a bit of devil's advocacy I'm ready to let fall silent. ;)

Joakal 16y ago

They have over 30 million more males than females. The Chinese may have equality, but that's a lot of sexually frustrated men that's going to contribute to unrest.

notahacker 16y ago
Since that ratio is in part the consequence of a pretty strong parental preference for male heirs, it's also a pretty good indicator that traditional attitudes die hard.
sandal 16y ago
You do realize that's less than a 3% difference, right?
- MrFoof 16y ago
  Additionally, don't most countries have more men than women? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_ratio http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex_ratio
  - burgerbrain 16y ago
    No, just the opposite. Most countries have more women than men. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sex_ratio_total_population_per_country_smooth.png http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Sex_ratio_total_population... Edit: check out that big red country on this one...: http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Sex_ratio_below_15_per_country_smooth.png http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/b/b2/Sex_ratio...
  - roel_v 16y ago
    Only at birth. Men die faster than women, so most countries in the world have more women than men.
- jhamburger 16y ago
  Bottom line, it's still 30 million guys not getting laid (or married, at least). I think this is an instance where the raw number is important.

spamizbad 16y ago

I would dispute this - China did not permit women to own land until 1950. Furthermore, laws against domestic violence weren't enshrined until 2001. China certainly has been liberalizing its gender laws at a faster clip than the west, which took the Women's Suffrage Movement several centuries.... but it's never been ahead of the curve.

angus77 16y ago
Interesting. Japan's never been a country that people would hold up as an example for gender equality, but women have always been "permitted" to own property---"permitted" as in: they never had that right taken away from them, and thus never had to fight to have it (in contrast to both China and the West).
widgetycrank 16y ago
>China did not permit women to own land until 1950. After 1950 men were not permitted to own land either. :P edit: In some ways China should really be looked at as two distinct demographics, urban and rural. They have vast different values that makes the country completely bipolar. The gender attitude among the urbanites are much more progressive, in some ways even more so than the west, while in the countryside they still practice infanticide. It may have to do with the fact that the communist ideology campaigns mostly targeted the cities, because Mao feared a bourgeoisie counter-revolution, while he already had grass root support from the countryside, so he took it for granted.
- gbog 16y ago
  This view on maoism and the infanticide allegation seem ungrounded to me. I know some alpha-males in China and they don't buy bags, they climb montains or sing in a punk band, like their mates in the West
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]
  - widgetycrank 16y ago