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I have been driving my model 3 for a year now and I don't think I can go back to a gas car, a car that doesn't receive OTA updates, or a car that doesn't have a

I have been driving my model 3 for a year now and I don't think I can go back to a gas car, a car that doesn't receive OTA updates, or a car that doesn't have a driving assistant similar to Autopilot. I'm happy that a new car company is challenging the rest of the auto industry on what a car should be and forcing them to drastically improve their products rather than incremental changes every year. Now we are seeing new car companies pop up ( Rivian ) that are following Tesla's footsteps. It is all very exciting to me.

hn_throwaway_99 7y ago
Your comment made me think of a very important data point: what percentage of people who get an electric car (or just make it Tesla specific) would ever consider owning an ICE car again? I'm hoping it would be very low. I own a Chevy Volt, and I know I'll never own a non-electric car again. Yes, I know my car has a gas engine, but I almost never use it (it is still very handy to keep me from having "range anxiety"), and honestly when it does switch on it just reminds me how I never want to own a pure-ICE car again.
- SEJeff 7y ago
  I think it is the little things. One of my family members drove up to see me recently and I let them park in my garage. I was blown away when I walked into the garage with the smell of oil and gas. Granted, their car is an early 90s corolla, but still. Then I worried about oil leaking and put down a drip mat. The thought of owning an ICE vehicle after owning a Tesla Model 3 for a year (Nov 2018 is when we took delivery) just does not sound appetizing whatsoever. My wife, who was originally a skeptic, is the one that suggested we sell our 2011 Ford Fiesta after purchasing the Tesla.
  - newnewpdro 7y ago
    > suggested we sell our 2011 Ford Fiesta after purchasing the Tesla It's a Ford Fiesta, you're not saying much here.
    - SEJeff 7y ago
      Very very true, but my point is that we've done about a dozen road trips now and the initial range anxiety we had has gone away. Per https://supercharge.info/changes https://supercharge.info/changes, Tesla opened, on average, 16 new superchargers in America per month. With the new supercharger v3 rollout it just means even more options. Our Model 3 has a range of 310 miles and there aren't a ton of places we'd actually want to go that we can't go thanks to the supercharger network. Other companies who are trying to make decent EVs still haven't solved the charging problem. EVgo is probably the best fast charging EV network outside of Tesla's, but they're only currently in California I believe.
  - zcw100 7y ago
    This makes no sense to me. After driving around an extremely inexpensive Ford Fiesta (14k MSRP for a 2019) you purchase a 40k Tesla then think, "Maybe I should get rid of the Fiesta"? So you could have easily afforded a more expensive care but thought, "na, I'll go with the Fiesta. I don't like spending money on cars" but then said, "oh hell ya, I'm buying the Tesla" because you've got 40K burning a hole in your pocket?
    - Robotbeat 7y ago
      Because it's smelly, messy, and requires much more regular maintenance and weekly gas station trips. If you're not super cash-strapped, an electric car is a pretty fantastic value. And if you are cash-strapped, there are some great deals on used Nissan Leafs and Chevy Volts (depending on your use case) out there. End up saving the difference in money on gas and maintenance.
      - ScottFree 7y ago
        I'll be very interested to see how Teslas hold up after 10+ years. I own a 15 year old Audi that I drive maybe once a week. Every time I start it up, something new has failed. It could be another broken sensor, a worn rubber hose, a broken plastic clip, a short in the electronics causing a parasitic power drain, etc. Part of it is the age, but part of it is that gas cars are designed to be driven. Letting them sit for any period of time will cause headaches. Electric cars should, in theory, be better in that regard as long as you leave them plugged in.
        tastygreenapple 7y ago
        You're probably putting too much explanatory power in 'electric' vs 'gas'. I'll speculate that things are failing on your Audi because it's an Audi, not because its gas powered. Go find someone driving a 15+ year old Lexus and ask them if something new breaks every time they drive. It's unlikely that they'll commiserate.
      - semi-extrinsic 7y ago
        How is it fantastic value when it costs almost 3x as much? I'm actually buying a new (used) car right now. Around the $15k mark, I can get e.g. a 4 year old 7 seater that's done 60k miles. Based on my previous car ownership, I expect to spend around $700/year on average on maintenance, and around $1000/year on fuel. In total, I can expect a first year total cost of 700+1000+1500 = $3200 of which the biggest cost is a 10% depreciation. If I were to buy a $40k Model 3 (with less seats, less cargo capacity) that had 0 maintenance and 0 fuel cost, I'd still spend $4000 the first year to depreciation alone. 4000 > 3200. How are you saving anything?
- bane 7y ago
  tbh, electric tech has gotten very good in general. In the last couple years I've replaced my lawn mower and chainsaw with all electric models. They share the same battery so I can just move the battery between the two devices. In terms of performance, they're 90-95% as good as the gas models they replaced. But they bring so many other benefits to the table that I'm simply not ever going to go back -- mostly the lack of exhaust fumes, the much lower (and less messy) maintenance, and much much quieter. There's still some use-cases where the gas variants are better, just like in vehicles, but they are few and far between and it's often worth it to just figure out how to get around using the gas models. I really don't think there's a turning back at this point. It's really now a matter of filling out all the market ecosystems with electric vehicles.
  - japhyr 7y ago
    What electric chainsaw do you have? I cut ~3 cords of firewood a year, from logs ~12-20" in diameter, and I'll be happy to buy an electric saw at some point. But I haven't seen one that seems suitable for longer cutting sessions with moderate-sized rounds.
    - dvdkhlng 7y ago
      I don't know anything about chainsaws, but the parent mentioned being able to remove the chainsaw's battery pack. With enough batteries, and maybe concurrent charging, any length of cutting sessions should be possible.
    - Robotbeat 7y ago
      I have a corded electric chainsaw (which I got for free). Should run practically indefinitely. Thinking of getting a beefy, over-powered pure sine inverter so I can run it from my electric car. Could get a smaller battery powered one for more mobile use.
      - newnewpdro 7y ago
        A corded one seems like a great choice. I can't imagine a battery-operated one lasting long enough to be practical without getting quite big and heavy.
- cocoflunchy 7y ago
  According to this Bloomberg survey: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/market-evolution.html#intro https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey..., 79.8% of Model 3 buyers strongly agree with "I will never buy another gasoline-powered car" (and 13.4% agree)
- esotericn 7y ago
  Right. I plan to run my Model S into the ground, at which point I imagine the traditional manufacturers will have pulled their fingers out and I can start cycling through second hand electric Honda Civic equivalents like I did with ICE cars.
- alasdair_ 7y ago
  >what percentage of people who get an electric car (or just make it Tesla specific) would ever consider owning an ICE car again? I'm hoping it would be very low. My wife and I have a model S and a model X and we are seriously considering buying an extremely old 4x4 truck for hauling firewood, trash etc. That's about it however - I'd never go back to an ICE car for regular transport and if it were five years from now I'd get a used Cyber Truck instead of the ICE pickup. My only real concern is some kind of disaster with a long-term power outage. I live near Seattle and Solar simply isn't cost-efficient compared to the very cheap (and green) hydro power that we have and the PowerWall batteries just don't seem good enough yet to bother getting them. I may go for a natural gas generator to help with any serious outages but that's about it. My parents in the UK don't have garage space (which is very common there - street parking is the norm in many places) and so they are stuck with ICE for the foreseeable future until infrastructure improves enough that they can charge nightly without needing garage space.
  - toomuchtodo 7y ago
    We have a hitch on both our S and X for hauling trailers full of wood, trash, etc. Highly recommend over a pickup truck.
  - azhenley 7y ago
    > My parents in the UK don't have garage space (which is very common there - street parking is the norm in many places) and so they are stuck with ICE for the foreseeable future until infrastructure improves enough that they can charge nightly without needing garage space. I live in an apartment in a not so big city in the US and don't have access to chargers. I still find it very convenient to find places to charge my Tesla and never worry about it!
  - wglb 7y ago
    When thinking about backup generators, consider diesel. Their maintenance is two orders of magnitude less, and the hardware lasts far longer.
- rconti 7y ago
  I bought a diesel SUV about a year after buying our Model 3. But yeah, I can't fathom spending big bucks on an ICE vehicle anymore. It just feels so dated and archaic.
- mikestew 7y ago
  Driving a first-gen Nissan Leaf that we pre-ordered the day we were able. Eight years later, we’ve decided that we’ve purchased our last ICE. By the time the Leaf battery dies enough to be impractical, the ‘05 Scion can be replaced with whatever the new EV hotness (oh, please build the Buzz, VW). By then, I expect range to enough to just have the one EV and that’s it. But, man, no more stinky, rattling gas-burners, please. I hop in that Scion, it feels primitive. Even our lawn tools are electric. The Honda generator is the only reason to keep a gas can around.
tdhz77 7y ago
I had an accident in October. I've looked around for cars since this time and I really can't pull the trigger on any ICE cars. Even when factoring how cheap ICE cars are it becomes even more clear that for a few thousand dollars more I could eliminate oil/gas maintenence all together. The convienence alone is worth the 5k. I really don't know whats holding people back from such a superior product.
- exhilaration 7y ago
  Many of us are waiting for affordable electric minivans that can sit 7 or 8. There's a lot of big families in America.
  - SEJeff 7y ago
    The Tesla Model Y and Model X both have 7 seater options. It wouldn't be as big as a minivan, but it does seat 7.
    - ng7j5d9 7y ago
      Affordable probably being the key word there.
      - ctdonath 7y ago
        Still early in the technology's development and permeation of society. Was just a few years ago that EVs were simply not feasible. Now they're downright common in some areas (Atlanta), have reached "affordable" (Tesla 3 in $30k range, good used Leaf for $6k), and options extend to 7-seat vehicles. The 6-seat Cybertruck will start in the $30k range. "Affordable 7-seat" is just a matter of time.
        FireBeyond 7y ago
        I mean the X is effectively a six digit purchase after sales tax (or a few options, like self-driving). It's not coming down that much. And $70K more than a new Voyager is... a lot.
jordanbeiber 7y ago
Same here, but I drive a leaf. In a city it all makes sense - the grid has been there for ages, and how many trips are really longer than 200km RT in your average larger city? I’m never going ICE again, if I can help it. Companies must milk those R&D costs though... not to mention the oil industry. Money really is a double-edged sword.
electrograv 7y ago
This is interesting because the idea of owning a car that takes regular OTA updates, and can be disabled or tracked remotely at any time by the manufacturer — to me is very scary/creepy. Maybe I’m paranoid, but I have a hard time not extrapolating the OTA update experience from other software (desktop, phone OS’s) to cars too: updates breaking features inadvertently but with no prompt fix, injecting new spyware against your will but with no real alternate, updated terms of service that you have no choice but to agree to if you want to be able to drive home, etc. Given the track record with OTA software updates everywhere else, we need positive assurance that the there won’t be these same profitable compromises of user experience, privacy, freedom, etc. eventually for these cars. Because the status quo is quite the opposite. Have you read the terms of service and related documents you signed when buying your Tesla, in full? I fully agree about self driving / driver assistance though, and for example am thrilled that Toyota now includes in all their new cars (for free, as a base feature) their entire autonomous drivers assistance sensor suite and features: adaptive cruise control (works in stop and go traffic), lane steering assistance, automatic braking, automatic high/low beams, etc. (and it all works very reliably in my experience). I know it’s nothing like the autonomous features Tesla offers in their upgrade package, but this is a very welcome change in the industry.
- nullwarp 7y ago
  I'm completely with you on that, after those Jeep hacks that came out a few years back I think an internet connection on my vehicle is kind of the last thing I want. Maybe I'm just paranoid though.
  - ScottFree 7y ago
    I wonder if there could be an option for your vehicle to only turn on the internet connection and check for updates while it's charging?
    - ianai 7y ago
      It’s absolutely something you should be in complete control over. I should at least be able to offline the car unilaterally.

hn_throwaway_99 7y ago

Your comment made me think of a very important data point: what percentage of people who get an electric car (or just make it Tesla specific) would ever consider owning an ICE car again? I'm hoping it would be very low. I own a Chevy Volt, and I know I'll never own a non-electric car again. Yes, I know my car has a gas engine, but I almost never use it (it is still very handy to keep me from having "range anxiety"), and honestly when it does switch on it just reminds me how I never want to own a pure-ICE car again.

SEJeff 7y ago
I think it is the little things. One of my family members drove up to see me recently and I let them park in my garage. I was blown away when I walked into the garage with the smell of oil and gas. Granted, their car is an early 90s corolla, but still. Then I worried about oil leaking and put down a drip mat. The thought of owning an ICE vehicle after owning a Tesla Model 3 for a year (Nov 2018 is when we took delivery) just does not sound appetizing whatsoever. My wife, who was originally a skeptic, is the one that suggested we sell our 2011 Ford Fiesta after purchasing the Tesla.
- newnewpdro 7y ago
  > suggested we sell our 2011 Ford Fiesta after purchasing the Tesla It's a Ford Fiesta, you're not saying much here.
  - SEJeff 7y ago
    Very very true, but my point is that we've done about a dozen road trips now and the initial range anxiety we had has gone away. Per https://supercharge.info/changes https://supercharge.info/changes, Tesla opened, on average, 16 new superchargers in America per month. With the new supercharger v3 rollout it just means even more options. Our Model 3 has a range of 310 miles and there aren't a ton of places we'd actually want to go that we can't go thanks to the supercharger network. Other companies who are trying to make decent EVs still haven't solved the charging problem. EVgo is probably the best fast charging EV network outside of Tesla's, but they're only currently in California I believe.
- zcw100 7y ago
  This makes no sense to me. After driving around an extremely inexpensive Ford Fiesta (14k MSRP for a 2019) you purchase a 40k Tesla then think, "Maybe I should get rid of the Fiesta"? So you could have easily afforded a more expensive care but thought, "na, I'll go with the Fiesta. I don't like spending money on cars" but then said, "oh hell ya, I'm buying the Tesla" because you've got 40K burning a hole in your pocket?
  - Robotbeat 7y ago
    Because it's smelly, messy, and requires much more regular maintenance and weekly gas station trips. If you're not super cash-strapped, an electric car is a pretty fantastic value. And if you are cash-strapped, there are some great deals on used Nissan Leafs and Chevy Volts (depending on your use case) out there. End up saving the difference in money on gas and maintenance.
    - ScottFree 7y ago
      I'll be very interested to see how Teslas hold up after 10+ years. I own a 15 year old Audi that I drive maybe once a week. Every time I start it up, something new has failed. It could be another broken sensor, a worn rubber hose, a broken plastic clip, a short in the electronics causing a parasitic power drain, etc. Part of it is the age, but part of it is that gas cars are designed to be driven. Letting them sit for any period of time will cause headaches. Electric cars should, in theory, be better in that regard as long as you leave them plugged in.
      - tastygreenapple 7y ago
        You're probably putting too much explanatory power in 'electric' vs 'gas'. I'll speculate that things are failing on your Audi because it's an Audi, not because its gas powered. Go find someone driving a 15+ year old Lexus and ask them if something new breaks every time they drive. It's unlikely that they'll commiserate.
    - semi-extrinsic 7y ago
      How is it fantastic value when it costs almost 3x as much? I'm actually buying a new (used) car right now. Around the $15k mark, I can get e.g. a 4 year old 7 seater that's done 60k miles. Based on my previous car ownership, I expect to spend around $700/year on average on maintenance, and around $1000/year on fuel. In total, I can expect a first year total cost of 700+1000+1500 = $3200 of which the biggest cost is a 10% depreciation. If I were to buy a $40k Model 3 (with less seats, less cargo capacity) that had 0 maintenance and 0 fuel cost, I'd still spend $4000 the first year to depreciation alone. 4000 > 3200. How are you saving anything?
bane 7y ago
tbh, electric tech has gotten very good in general. In the last couple years I've replaced my lawn mower and chainsaw with all electric models. They share the same battery so I can just move the battery between the two devices. In terms of performance, they're 90-95% as good as the gas models they replaced. But they bring so many other benefits to the table that I'm simply not ever going to go back -- mostly the lack of exhaust fumes, the much lower (and less messy) maintenance, and much much quieter. There's still some use-cases where the gas variants are better, just like in vehicles, but they are few and far between and it's often worth it to just figure out how to get around using the gas models. I really don't think there's a turning back at this point. It's really now a matter of filling out all the market ecosystems with electric vehicles.
- japhyr 7y ago
  What electric chainsaw do you have? I cut ~3 cords of firewood a year, from logs ~12-20" in diameter, and I'll be happy to buy an electric saw at some point. But I haven't seen one that seems suitable for longer cutting sessions with moderate-sized rounds.
  - dvdkhlng 7y ago
    I don't know anything about chainsaws, but the parent mentioned being able to remove the chainsaw's battery pack. With enough batteries, and maybe concurrent charging, any length of cutting sessions should be possible.
  - Robotbeat 7y ago
    I have a corded electric chainsaw (which I got for free). Should run practically indefinitely. Thinking of getting a beefy, over-powered pure sine inverter so I can run it from my electric car. Could get a smaller battery powered one for more mobile use.
    - newnewpdro 7y ago
      A corded one seems like a great choice. I can't imagine a battery-operated one lasting long enough to be practical without getting quite big and heavy.
cocoflunchy 7y ago
According to this Bloomberg survey: https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey/market-evolution.html#intro https://www.bloomberg.com/graphics/2019-tesla-model-3-survey..., 79.8% of Model 3 buyers strongly agree with "I will never buy another gasoline-powered car" (and 13.4% agree)
esotericn 7y ago
Right. I plan to run my Model S into the ground, at which point I imagine the traditional manufacturers will have pulled their fingers out and I can start cycling through second hand electric Honda Civic equivalents like I did with ICE cars.
alasdair_ 7y ago
>what percentage of people who get an electric car (or just make it Tesla specific) would ever consider owning an ICE car again? I'm hoping it would be very low. My wife and I have a model S and a model X and we are seriously considering buying an extremely old 4x4 truck for hauling firewood, trash etc. That's about it however - I'd never go back to an ICE car for regular transport and if it were five years from now I'd get a used Cyber Truck instead of the ICE pickup. My only real concern is some kind of disaster with a long-term power outage. I live near Seattle and Solar simply isn't cost-efficient compared to the very cheap (and green) hydro power that we have and the PowerWall batteries just don't seem good enough yet to bother getting them. I may go for a natural gas generator to help with any serious outages but that's about it. My parents in the UK don't have garage space (which is very common there - street parking is the norm in many places) and so they are stuck with ICE for the foreseeable future until infrastructure improves enough that they can charge nightly without needing garage space.
- toomuchtodo 7y ago
  We have a hitch on both our S and X for hauling trailers full of wood, trash, etc. Highly recommend over a pickup truck.
- azhenley 7y ago
  > My parents in the UK don't have garage space (which is very common there - street parking is the norm in many places) and so they are stuck with ICE for the foreseeable future until infrastructure improves enough that they can charge nightly without needing garage space. I live in an apartment in a not so big city in the US and don't have access to chargers. I still find it very convenient to find places to charge my Tesla and never worry about it!
- wglb 7y ago
  When thinking about backup generators, consider diesel. Their maintenance is two orders of magnitude less, and the hardware lasts far longer.
rconti 7y ago
I bought a diesel SUV about a year after buying our Model 3. But yeah, I can't fathom spending big bucks on an ICE vehicle anymore. It just feels so dated and archaic.
mikestew 7y ago
Driving a first-gen Nissan Leaf that we pre-ordered the day we were able. Eight years later, we’ve decided that we’ve purchased our last ICE. By the time the Leaf battery dies enough to be impractical, the ‘05 Scion can be replaced with whatever the new EV hotness (oh, please build the Buzz, VW). By then, I expect range to enough to just have the one EV and that’s it. But, man, no more stinky, rattling gas-burners, please. I hop in that Scion, it feels primitive. Even our lawn tools are electric. The Honda generator is the only reason to keep a gas can around.

tdhz77 7y ago

I had an accident in October. I've looked around for cars since this time and I really can't pull the trigger on any ICE cars. Even when factoring how cheap ICE cars are it becomes even more clear that for a few thousand dollars more I could eliminate oil/gas maintenence all together. The convienence alone is worth the 5k. I really don't know whats holding people back from such a superior product.

exhilaration 7y ago
Many of us are waiting for affordable electric minivans that can sit 7 or 8. There's a lot of big families in America.
- SEJeff 7y ago
  The Tesla Model Y and Model X both have 7 seater options. It wouldn't be as big as a minivan, but it does seat 7.
  - ng7j5d9 7y ago
    Affordable probably being the key word there.
    - ctdonath 7y ago
      Still early in the technology's development and permeation of society. Was just a few years ago that EVs were simply not feasible. Now they're downright common in some areas (Atlanta), have reached "affordable" (Tesla 3 in $30k range, good used Leaf for $6k), and options extend to 7-seat vehicles. The 6-seat Cybertruck will start in the $30k range. "Affordable 7-seat" is just a matter of time.
      - FireBeyond 7y ago
        I mean the X is effectively a six digit purchase after sales tax (or a few options, like self-driving). It's not coming down that much. And $70K more than a new Voyager is... a lot.

jordanbeiber 7y ago

Same here, but I drive a leaf. In a city it all makes sense - the grid has been there for ages, and how many trips are really longer than 200km RT in your average larger city? I’m never going ICE again, if I can help it. Companies must milk those R&D costs though... not to mention the oil industry. Money really is a double-edged sword.

electrograv 7y ago

This is interesting because the idea of owning a car that takes regular OTA updates, and can be disabled or tracked remotely at any time by the manufacturer — to me is very scary/creepy. Maybe I’m paranoid, but I have a hard time not extrapolating the OTA update experience from other software (desktop, phone OS’s) to cars too: updates breaking features inadvertently but with no prompt fix, injecting new spyware against your will but with no real alternate, updated terms of service that you have no choice but to agree to if you want to be able to drive home, etc. Given the track record with OTA software updates everywhere else, we need positive assurance that the there won’t be these same profitable compromises of user experience, privacy, freedom, etc. eventually for these cars. Because the status quo is quite the opposite. Have you read the terms of service and related documents you signed when buying your Tesla, in full? I fully agree about self driving / driver assistance though, and for example am thrilled that Toyota now includes in all their new cars (for free, as a base feature) their entire autonomous drivers assistance sensor suite and features: adaptive cruise control (works in stop and go traffic), lane steering assistance, automatic braking, automatic high/low beams, etc. (and it all works very reliably in my experience). I know it’s nothing like the autonomous features Tesla offers in their upgrade package, but this is a very welcome change in the industry.

nullwarp 7y ago
I'm completely with you on that, after those Jeep hacks that came out a few years back I think an internet connection on my vehicle is kind of the last thing I want. Maybe I'm just paranoid though.
- ScottFree 7y ago
  I wonder if there could be an option for your vehicle to only turn on the internet connection and check for updates while it's charging?
  - ianai 7y ago
    It’s absolutely something you should be in complete control over. I should at least be able to offline the car unilaterally.