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The original poster indicated the child was engaged in spontaneous sharing, which indicates the child isn't on the spectrum. (Spontaneous sharing requires an a

by LPTS 18y ago

The original poster indicated the child was engaged in spontaneous sharing, which indicates the child isn't on the spectrum. (Spontaneous sharing requires an ability to model the reaction of the person you share with, which requires the mirror neurons thought to be deficient in the autistic spectrum) Again, (and I don't mean any of this to sound harsh) your thoughts are not too relevant, because you can't use your kind of reasoning here. My dad (who is on the spectrum) ended up being horribly abusive to me throughout my childhood and teenage years because of thinking a lot like this. I don't want to conflate you and him, just to warn you that there is a really big trap it's easy for people with your personality traits to fall into around being overly logical, the projection that people with deficient mirror neurons have to resort to for relating to people, and how to treat and raise kids. You should recognize that you need the help of a person who doesn't share your mind-blindness to make appropriate judgements about children and how to relate to them. You absolutely cannot figure out how to treat kids on your own if you are on the spectrum. Using your logic, you should recognize it doesn't apply, and that you need a tool that isn't in your toolbox. Either a person who does have that skill who you listen to, or enough study of child psychology to reason your way to the right way to treat neurotypical kids.

xlnt 18y ago
Would I be correct to say that your comments/position are not specific to how to treat children? Any sort of autistic/non-autistic communication gap would be the same if one or both persons was an adult. PS would you like to continue this by AIM or email? curi42 / curi@curi.us
- LPTS 18y ago
  Incorrect. It's possible for autistic adults to relate well to non-autistic adults in many circumstances (discussing technical things at work, for example, or discussing common interests) without the extra effort. There will always be some sort of gap, but it's not always even that big of a deal. My comments are particular to children both because they are more at risk of being inadvertently harmed, and because they have less (in some cases, no) compensatory defense mechanisms. I don't use AIM but I will drop you an email after I get off my ass for a half hour and grab something to eat from my trailer.
  - xlnt 18y ago
    You should recognize that you need the help of a person who doesn't share your mind-blindness to make appropriate judgements about children and how to relate to them. You absolutely cannot figure out how to treat kids on your own if you are on the spectrum. So suppose we take the list of all the people who have similar views to me, on these issues. Then we go through the list and check if each person is autistic. If we find one who isn't autistic, then can we count these as valid positions?
    - LPTS 18y ago
      No, because a non-autistic person can use their mirror neurons to imitate the behavior a person who has it. (This is the mechanism by which all of human culture evolved). I'll drop you that email, maybe we are getting too far off topic.
      - dbrush 18y ago
        The existence of mirror neurons is a theory. Also, you're confusing Autism with all Autism Spectrum Disorders as a whole; Asperger's Syndrome, for example. Autism != Asperger's Syndrome
        LPTS 18y ago
        I am not confusing them so much as avoiding trying to write a textbook on autism when addressing the original issue. I was sloppy. I may not have succeeded at my goal of not writing too much. The existence of mirror neurons is not just a theory. A mirror neuron is (by definition) a neuron that fires both when you do something and someone else has done something. Those are observed. It is a theory that it causes autism, but not a theory that they fire less in autistic children, or that these areas of the brain are almost precisely the same places where autistic spectrum people have thinner brains then controls.
        stcredzero 18y ago
        than not then
dbrush 18y ago
You're making so many blind assumptions about Autism Spectrum Disorders and people you're conversing with here. " You should recognize that you need the help of a person who doesn't share your mind-blindness to make appropriate judgements about children and how to relate to them. You absolutely cannot figure out how to treat kids on your own if you are on the spectrum." That is so disgustingly far from an objective statement.
- LPTS 18y ago
  Yes and no. I was trying to make one small point and it kind of blew up into a thesis or something. I didn't mean for that to happen, and didn't work enough into the first things I wrote to support where the thread turned. That sounds awful out of context (which I probably failed to convey well). I was speaking particularly to xlnt, directly in response to things he said that saliently reminded me of the justifications my autistic father used to feel like he was doing the right thing during the years when he was extremely (and, importantly) unknowingly abusive to me, with the intention of challenging that part of his worldview. I didn't mean 'you' in any more universal sense then that, and I most certainly didn't mean it in the way you are reading it. I should of more carefully limited the scope of what I was saying to him, and made a point of mentioning that many autistic people are naturally great and understanding with kids. I'm not a great writer, so I'm sorry for that. Also, this discussion was going on for a while way down-thread and then this branch started, so you may have read the discussion out of chronological order. People who talk about raising kids as if they were robots, and their job is to use logic to make sure the robot always gives precisely the right output for it's own good later on need help raising kids. That much is undoubtedly true. You are reading me as meaning something I didn't mean.
  - dbrush 18y ago
    "People who talk about raising kids as if they were robots, and their job is to use logic to make sure the robot always gives precisely the right output for it's own good later on need help raising kids." I do, mostly and personally, agree with that. Though I would say it's generally the right of the parent to raise the child as the parent sees fit, within reason of course.

by LPTS 18y ago

xlnt 18y ago

Would I be correct to say that your comments/position are not specific to how to treat children? Any sort of autistic/non-autistic communication gap would be the same if one or both persons was an adult. PS would you like to continue this by AIM or email? curi42 / curi@curi.us

LPTS 18y ago
Incorrect. It's possible for autistic adults to relate well to non-autistic adults in many circumstances (discussing technical things at work, for example, or discussing common interests) without the extra effort. There will always be some sort of gap, but it's not always even that big of a deal. My comments are particular to children both because they are more at risk of being inadvertently harmed, and because they have less (in some cases, no) compensatory defense mechanisms. I don't use AIM but I will drop you an email after I get off my ass for a half hour and grab something to eat from my trailer.
- xlnt 18y ago
  You should recognize that you need the help of a person who doesn't share your mind-blindness to make appropriate judgements about children and how to relate to them. You absolutely cannot figure out how to treat kids on your own if you are on the spectrum. So suppose we take the list of all the people who have similar views to me, on these issues. Then we go through the list and check if each person is autistic. If we find one who isn't autistic, then can we count these as valid positions?
  - LPTS 18y ago
    No, because a non-autistic person can use their mirror neurons to imitate the behavior a person who has it. (This is the mechanism by which all of human culture evolved). I'll drop you that email, maybe we are getting too far off topic.
    - dbrush 18y ago
      The existence of mirror neurons is a theory. Also, you're confusing Autism with all Autism Spectrum Disorders as a whole; Asperger's Syndrome, for example. Autism != Asperger's Syndrome
      - LPTS 18y ago
        I am not confusing them so much as avoiding trying to write a textbook on autism when addressing the original issue. I was sloppy. I may not have succeeded at my goal of not writing too much. The existence of mirror neurons is not just a theory. A mirror neuron is (by definition) a neuron that fires both when you do something and someone else has done something. Those are observed. It is a theory that it causes autism, but not a theory that they fire less in autistic children, or that these areas of the brain are almost precisely the same places where autistic spectrum people have thinner brains then controls.
        stcredzero 18y ago
        than not then

dbrush 18y ago

You're making so many blind assumptions about Autism Spectrum Disorders and people you're conversing with here. " You should recognize that you need the help of a person who doesn't share your mind-blindness to make appropriate judgements about children and how to relate to them. You absolutely cannot figure out how to treat kids on your own if you are on the spectrum." That is so disgustingly far from an objective statement.

LPTS 18y ago
Yes and no. I was trying to make one small point and it kind of blew up into a thesis or something. I didn't mean for that to happen, and didn't work enough into the first things I wrote to support where the thread turned. That sounds awful out of context (which I probably failed to convey well). I was speaking particularly to xlnt, directly in response to things he said that saliently reminded me of the justifications my autistic father used to feel like he was doing the right thing during the years when he was extremely (and, importantly) unknowingly abusive to me, with the intention of challenging that part of his worldview. I didn't mean 'you' in any more universal sense then that, and I most certainly didn't mean it in the way you are reading it. I should of more carefully limited the scope of what I was saying to him, and made a point of mentioning that many autistic people are naturally great and understanding with kids. I'm not a great writer, so I'm sorry for that. Also, this discussion was going on for a while way down-thread and then this branch started, so you may have read the discussion out of chronological order. People who talk about raising kids as if they were robots, and their job is to use logic to make sure the robot always gives precisely the right output for it's own good later on need help raising kids. That much is undoubtedly true. You are reading me as meaning something I didn't mean.
- dbrush 18y ago
  "People who talk about raising kids as if they were robots, and their job is to use logic to make sure the robot always gives precisely the right output for it's own good later on need help raising kids." I do, mostly and personally, agree with that. Though I would say it's generally the right of the parent to raise the child as the parent sees fit, within reason of course.