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> the syntax doesn't really matter at all. Somehow it does though: I find even j/k/apl easier to parse in my head than Ruby; somehow the ruby syntax gives me a

> the syntax doesn't really matter at all. Somehow it does though: I find even j/k/apl easier to parse in my head than Ruby; somehow the ruby syntax gives me a headache. Not sure why that is, as I wrote a lot of code in it, but I find Python, C#, F#, Haskell or Kotlin far nicer to read and write. And, even though I understand the semantics and can write code in Ruby, if I have a choice, I would never touch it again. And that's only syntax/idioms. I find JS also quite rancid syntactically, but not as repulsive as Ruby. And I know other people have this with different (or the same) languages as well; like someone else said, most people (even on HN) won't even try languages with a 'weird' syntax, even if they are proven to be more productive in some cases relevant to them. I know quite a lot of Lisp-y coders (most of them do Clojure these days) and they don't understand how/why you would ever use anything else. Most people here (maybe including you) have the inverse of that. As there are blazingly fast Lisp/Schemes on every platform, why are you using Go or another syntax than the basic AST? And yet you are and most of us are. If syntax does not matter, why have any syntax at all?

skinnymuch 7y ago
Yeah for sure this is a big thing. I love Ruby’s syntax and if I could, I’d love to write in it all day if I was being paid the same amount as another language. Psychology is also at play. JavaScript I agreed can be quite rancid. But knowing it’s the only language that works in every browser, I internally whined about it less and now rarely do at all.
- tluyben2 7y ago
  I do not really whine about it (except when people are talking about it as I do feel it's important to have and hear different opinions) and of course JS is currently a necessary evil. Thinking about that too much makes no sense and serves no purpose, but when I step back, I know I just really don't like it. And then I just get back to coding. With Ruby I have a harder time doing that. Guess it's taste and 'first experience'; my first Ruby experience was inheriting a very large, badly written (very hacky) RoR codebase I had to migrate 2 versions up to the latest RoR. It was pure hell. So it would be a combination of things that gives me such PTSD for syntax.
- iLemming 7y ago
  > it’s the only language that works in every browser Assembly is the only language that works on every machine, no matter how small or big. But that doesn't mean that we all have to write assembly. Or Javascript (if we're targeting Web). Purescript, Elm, ReasonML, Clojurescript - they all exist for good reasons, not some made-up bullshit points.
stOneskull 7y ago
For me, it's end statements. I hate them.
AnimalMuppet 7y ago
Syntax matters. But... 1. Other things matter more. How a language scales to 100 programmers working on 10 million lines over 20 years, say, matters more (in some environments) than the syntax does. Syntax contributes to that. But syntax contributes to that precisely by being pretty vanilla, uninteresting syntax. More, sexier syntax makes a language worse for that environment. (I'm talking about go here. But I could make a similar argument for other languages in other environments.) Syntax matters as a means to an end; the end matters. Syntax where the end is syntax doesn't matter so much. 2. I suspect (and assert without proof) that peoples' brains work in different ways, and that a person finds languages easier or harder as those languages conform or conflict with the way the person thinks. Ruby syntax gives you a headache? And the problem isn't that you just need to learn Ruby better. But for every you, there's (at least one) someone who has the same issue with J/K/APL. And that's fine. People whose way of thinking matches APL should program in APL, and those whose way of thinking matches Ruby should program in Ruby. We don't need one language to rule them all. They each have their target niche and their target audience.
iLemming 7y ago
> I know quite a lot of Lisp-y coders (most of them do Clojure these days) and they don't understand how/why you would ever use anything else Because Lisps emphasize data more than the syntax. The following quote is from Rich Hickey's famous: "Simple Made easy" talk: Syntax, interestingly, complects meaning and order often in a very unidirectional way. Professor Sussman made the great point about data versus syntax, and it's super true. I don't care how many you really love the syntax of your favorite language. It's inferior to data in every way.

skinnymuch 7y ago

Yeah for sure this is a big thing. I love Ruby’s syntax and if I could, I’d love to write in it all day if I was being paid the same amount as another language. Psychology is also at play. JavaScript I agreed can be quite rancid. But knowing it’s the only language that works in every browser, I internally whined about it less and now rarely do at all.

tluyben2 7y ago
I do not really whine about it (except when people are talking about it as I do feel it's important to have and hear different opinions) and of course JS is currently a necessary evil. Thinking about that too much makes no sense and serves no purpose, but when I step back, I know I just really don't like it. And then I just get back to coding. With Ruby I have a harder time doing that. Guess it's taste and 'first experience'; my first Ruby experience was inheriting a very large, badly written (very hacky) RoR codebase I had to migrate 2 versions up to the latest RoR. It was pure hell. So it would be a combination of things that gives me such PTSD for syntax.
iLemming 7y ago
> it’s the only language that works in every browser Assembly is the only language that works on every machine, no matter how small or big. But that doesn't mean that we all have to write assembly. Or Javascript (if we're targeting Web). Purescript, Elm, ReasonML, Clojurescript - they all exist for good reasons, not some made-up bullshit points.

stOneskull 7y ago

For me, it's end statements. I hate them.

AnimalMuppet 7y ago

Syntax matters. But... 1. Other things matter more. How a language scales to 100 programmers working on 10 million lines over 20 years, say, matters more (in some environments) than the syntax does. Syntax contributes to that. But syntax contributes to that precisely by being pretty vanilla, uninteresting syntax. More, sexier syntax makes a language worse for that environment. (I'm talking about go here. But I could make a similar argument for other languages in other environments.) Syntax matters as a means to an end; the end matters. Syntax where the end is syntax doesn't matter so much. 2. I suspect (and assert without proof) that peoples' brains work in different ways, and that a person finds languages easier or harder as those languages conform or conflict with the way the person thinks. Ruby syntax gives you a headache? And the problem isn't that you just need to learn Ruby better. But for every you, there's (at least one) someone who has the same issue with J/K/APL. And that's fine. People whose way of thinking matches APL should program in APL, and those whose way of thinking matches Ruby should program in Ruby. We don't need one language to rule them all. They each have their target niche and their target audience.

iLemming 7y ago

> I know quite a lot of Lisp-y coders (most of them do Clojure these days) and they don't understand how/why you would ever use anything else Because Lisps emphasize data more than the syntax. The following quote is from Rich Hickey's famous: "Simple Made easy" talk: Syntax, interestingly, complects meaning and order often in a very unidirectional way. Professor Sussman made the great point about data versus syntax, and it's super true. I don't care how many you really love the syntax of your favorite language. It's inferior to data in every way.