4 ms·

I don't really understand your argument here, and I definitely don't understand your ire. Apple releases an OS, which anyone can download, without any authoriza

by saurik 7y ago

I don't really understand your argument here, and I definitely don't understand your ire. Apple releases an OS, which anyone can download, without any authorization, from their website, seemingly for free... these downloads aren't even encrypted. Corellium developed an emulator for Apple's hardware that, if you load an Apple OS onto it, can run that OS. As Apple allows anyone, without any kind of authorization to just download the OS from their website, it would seem like Corellium should be able to make this emulator, no? This emulator product doesn't actually compete with any service or technology that Apple provides except maybe the small handful of research devices that Apple is willing to hand to a very very very small number of blessed bug bounty program members, and that's (frankly) a stretch.

vineyardmike 7y ago
You have to accept EULAs to download it, surely.
- saurik 7y ago
  Actually, no. You have to accept an EULA to "activate" the software (something Corellium's emulator can't even do, which means you don't have access to iCloud, iTunes, the App store, etc.), but you don't have to accept an EULA to download the software. Oracle, to contrast, allows anyone to download their Java SDK, but you first have to accept an EULA (something they changed from how Sun previously had it set up, where anyone could download the software without first accepting the EULA); Apple has no such restriction on their downloads. https://updates.cdn-apple.com/2019FallFCS/fullrestores/061-08602/B90B0666-C875-11E9-BEDD-DD1D6F0C6FF0/iPhone_4.7_13.0_17A577_Restore.ipsw https://updates.cdn-apple.com/2019FallFCS/fullrestores/061-0...
  - FDSGSG 7y ago
    So how did you get that link without accepting any EULAs? Apple does not make IPSW download links publicly available.
FDSGSG 7y ago
> Apple releases an OS, which anyone can download, without any authorization, from their website, seemingly for free Microsoft does the same with Windows. Can I rent out VMs running cracked copies of Windows now?
- saurik 7y ago
  > Microsoft does the same with Windows. I am pretty sure Microsoft doesn't do the same thing with Windows; they allow you to download, for example, an ISO file for Windows 10, but only if you go through their website portal that explains you must accept their "Microsoft Terms of Use" which then generates a personalized URL for your specific usage that expires in 24 hours, etc. Apple just lets anyone download the IPSW file for their firmware, no questions asked. > Can I rent out VMs running cracked copies of Windows now? You absolutely can provide a VM service that emulates an Intel computer, and if a user downloads Windows for free and is allowed to run it on that computer and they decide to violate the EULA, I'm pretty sure that's on them? If I provide software that helps you download and install iOS on any ARM device, and also happen to rent access to ARM devices, is that somehow more illegal than doing either of those two things separately?
m3kw9 7y ago
It only works on iOS compatible hardware so it is implied you have paid for a device to use it. Is part of the cost of a device. Apple hired 1000s and paid billions to develop and maintain that “free” OS
- saurik 7y ago
  That sounds like a moral argument, not a legal argument? If Apple wants it to be that way, maybe they should just put the iOS firmware download behind some kind of EULA, like every other company that attempts to do the same thing (and which I have some good reason to suspect has been explained to Apple multiple times with respect to the situation with Corellium)?
- kelnos 7y ago
  If I can download an iOS image from Apple's servers without having to agree to a license that says I only get to run it on an authorized Apple device, then I can do whatever I want with it (short of distributing it). > It only works on iOS compatible hardware Put another way, Apple does not have a monopoly on creating iOS-compatible hardware. A third party would have a decent amount of trouble reverse-engineering their hardware to build a workalike, but, absent a license agreement or some sort of access control, they cannot legally prevent me from running an unmodified iOS image on a piece of hardware or software of my choosing. (Corellium appears to be using modified iOS images, so they're almost certainly in the wrong here with regard to this point, of course.)

by saurik 7y ago

vineyardmike 7y ago

You have to accept EULAs to download it, surely.

saurik 7y ago
Actually, no. You have to accept an EULA to "activate" the software (something Corellium's emulator can't even do, which means you don't have access to iCloud, iTunes, the App store, etc.), but you don't have to accept an EULA to download the software. Oracle, to contrast, allows anyone to download their Java SDK, but you first have to accept an EULA (something they changed from how Sun previously had it set up, where anyone could download the software without first accepting the EULA); Apple has no such restriction on their downloads. https://updates.cdn-apple.com/2019FallFCS/fullrestores/061-08602/B90B0666-C875-11E9-BEDD-DD1D6F0C6FF0/iPhone_4.7_13.0_17A577_Restore.ipsw https://updates.cdn-apple.com/2019FallFCS/fullrestores/061-0...
- FDSGSG 7y ago
  So how did you get that link without accepting any EULAs? Apple does not make IPSW download links publicly available.

FDSGSG 7y ago

> Apple releases an OS, which anyone can download, without any authorization, from their website, seemingly for free Microsoft does the same with Windows. Can I rent out VMs running cracked copies of Windows now?

saurik 7y ago
> Microsoft does the same with Windows. I am pretty sure Microsoft doesn't do the same thing with Windows; they allow you to download, for example, an ISO file for Windows 10, but only if you go through their website portal that explains you must accept their "Microsoft Terms of Use" which then generates a personalized URL for your specific usage that expires in 24 hours, etc. Apple just lets anyone download the IPSW file for their firmware, no questions asked. > Can I rent out VMs running cracked copies of Windows now? You absolutely can provide a VM service that emulates an Intel computer, and if a user downloads Windows for free and is allowed to run it on that computer and they decide to violate the EULA, I'm pretty sure that's on them? If I provide software that helps you download and install iOS on any ARM device, and also happen to rent access to ARM devices, is that somehow more illegal than doing either of those two things separately?

m3kw9 7y ago

It only works on iOS compatible hardware so it is implied you have paid for a device to use it. Is part of the cost of a device. Apple hired 1000s and paid billions to develop and maintain that “free” OS

saurik 7y ago
That sounds like a moral argument, not a legal argument? If Apple wants it to be that way, maybe they should just put the iOS firmware download behind some kind of EULA, like every other company that attempts to do the same thing (and which I have some good reason to suspect has been explained to Apple multiple times with respect to the situation with Corellium)?
kelnos 7y ago
If I can download an iOS image from Apple's servers without having to agree to a license that says I only get to run it on an authorized Apple device, then I can do whatever I want with it (short of distributing it). > It only works on iOS compatible hardware Put another way, Apple does not have a monopoly on creating iOS-compatible hardware. A third party would have a decent amount of trouble reverse-engineering their hardware to build a workalike, but, absent a license agreement or some sort of access control, they cannot legally prevent me from running an unmodified iOS image on a piece of hardware or software of my choosing. (Corellium appears to be using modified iOS images, so they're almost certainly in the wrong here with regard to this point, of course.)