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Counter-anecdote: I've experimented with this stuff extensively in various settings and have known many other people who did, and in my experience it's unequivo

Counter-anecdote: I've experimented with this stuff extensively in various settings and have known many other people who did, and in my experience it's unequivocally bullshit. Here's what happens. First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That makes sense to me in a sense that the word "trip" isn't a coincidence-- a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depression for a month or two. You swear that when you come back things will be different, but then you have to answer slack messages at 9pm, and your project is slipping at work, and your wife is flirting with strangers every time you go to a bar, and well... in a month or two you're back to feeling exactly the same way you did before (until you take the next vacation). Second, people who discover psychedelics go on a multiyear quest for enlightenment. They keep taking various drugs, keep feeling like they understand things better and better, get sucked into the psychedelic social vortex of other truth-seekers, and generally believe that their life is full of meaning and is going to turn around at any moment. Except by any objective measure they're still nervous wrecks-- they have every physiological symptom of stress and depression, and aside from temporary alleviation of their symptoms (see part one), they always regress to the mean. Third, after a few years of this people eventually reach a fork. Most people realize that their psychonautic journey is at best leading them in circles, and at worst is causing their life to spiral down the drain. So they give it up, get a job without 9pm slack messages (or find a better way to adjust to stress), marry someone who isn't constantly on the verge of cheating, start doing regular exercise, and generally find a way to settle into a reasonably balanced life. A small minority of people double down, grow out their (usually grey by then) hair down to their shoulders, go to festivals and workshops, talk of energy and chi and chakras, stare into the eyes of strangers, and touch each other's faces. Generally speaking, I haven't run into anyone yet who found a third path. So, while I'd be the first to admit I'm wrong and celebrate if this proves to actually work, if I were a betting man I'd bet against at any reasonable odds and sleep secure in the knowledge that my money is safe.

pmoriarty 7y ago
Counter-counter anecdote: I was just listening to an interview[1] with Dennis McKenna[2] (brother of Terence McKenna[3]) in which he said: "If I'm going to take it [a psychedelic substance] I'm going to pay attention to it. It's sort of like you have an opportunity to sit with someone who's very wise and they have stuff to tell you and so they deserve that respect. That's what's changed. I give it my respect. "And sometimes people say, well, you've been doing this 50 years haven't you got the lesson yet? .. there's one perspective that says 'once you get the message hang up the phone'. "Well, maybe I'm a slow learner but I'm still learning from these things. They're not like an answering machine. It's not like there's only one message. "It's like if you had a mentor, a teacher, someone who you respect you're not going to reach a point where you say, 'well, basically I've learned everything you have to tell me so thank you very much and I'll be on my way.' Chances are they still know more and they always will know more than you will know. "Every time I take ayahuasca or mushrooms I learn something new or I am reminded of what I've forgotten, what's easy to forget in the day-to-day hustle of life. I just feel it's still valuable. In some ways it's a touchstone. It's a way of getting back to that place, that sacred space, sacred time environment where you can remind yourself of the eternal truths." Second counter-anecdote: Ram Dass[4], in his 80's after suffering a stroke, when asked in an interview that I can't find at the moment about what LSD has done for him replied "I'm happy. I've had a stroke and I'm happy. That's LSD." [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGYm5OdvwNs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGYm5OdvwNs [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_McKenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_McKenna [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrence_McKenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrence_McKenna [4] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_dass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_dass
- scotty79 7y ago
  Sounds exactly like running in circles...
- shlant 7y ago
  I think referencing the leaders of the psychedelic movement would be a pretty biased argument for psychedelic use. Survivorship bias would also be a factor. I want to echo the sentiment of the OP - I have yet to meet someone who does not go down one of the two paths described. Either they continue to do various psychedelic substances over the years claiming to have solved all their problems while a cursory examination shows their lives continue to be a mess.... or they stop looking at it as a panacea and start making meaningful changes in their lives that actually have a long-term positive impact (this is my own experience). I don't have a problem with using psychedelics IN A RESPONSIBLE WAY for short term relief from symptoms of a greater issue that actually requires concrete, meaningful action to address. Maybe the relief, from depression for example, is enough to find the motivation to take those actions. HOWEVER - most people tend to be very black and white in their thinking and don't see it as treating a symptom - they see it as a solution to all their problems. You see it over and over again with various approaches - fasting, keto and psychedelics being the current fads. There is no panacea for living a healthy, fulfilling life. It takes conscious, persistent shifts on many different levels. There is no cure-all. There never has been, and never will be.
vokep 7y ago
I think this is relevant https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21590028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21590028 I see what you mean and you're certainly right for a segment of the population that seems to get caught on the high without much skepticism of it. That said, it is in not bullshit, and its not bullshit precisely because of what cite as being the bullshit: People take it and get the same benefit as going on a multi-week vacation. At least that can happen. Given you report your own experimentation, I'm curious if you mean psychedelics as a whole or specifically psilocybin? I'm curious of this because while I have experienced significant change in my worldview as a result of LSD trips, I had none of the same from shrooms. They're fun for sure, but I felt the next day the same I would if I spent the same time smoking cannabis. Family members of mine also have had shrooms and similarly found little to no productive value in them, but have found value in LSD. The temptation to suspect a genetic link is obvious, but of course thats just my n=1. When on LSD I tried a sort of self-therapy that seemed extremely successful, thinking through issues and considering new narratives of worldview. I've also had LSD trips where I didn't attempt such self-therapy, and found that I woke the next day feeling no different. I also tried self-therapy on shrooms and thought it was working during the trip, but woke up feeling just the same as before. So I think methodical thought through whatever is making the person feel depressed is absolutely necessary if any success is to be expected. I suspect that many of the people who have gotten the best of the benefits of psychedelics and led successful lives are just not so vocal about it. I feel LSD has majorly helped me, but I'm really not about to go preaching that, because while it helped, it wasn't the only component. I also made the choices to use what I learned on it and change how I behave.
throwawaycanada 7y ago
For a lot of people when it "works" for them is when they discover they no longer need the drug at all and feel they know more about themselves. You describe it here: "Most people realize that their psychonautic journey is at best leading them in circles, and at worst is causing their life to spiral down the drain. So they give it up, get a job without 9pm slack messages (or find a better way to adjust to stress), marry someone who isn't constantly on the verge of cheating, start doing regular exercise, and generally find a way to settle into a reasonably balanced life." Perhaps this period of self examination is what leads so many to such similar conclusions?
klyrs 7y ago
If your life sucks, depression is a completely reasonable side effect. Clinical depression is a different beast -- even on great days, free of external stressors, you're wont to feel miserable. Mushrooms won't fix your life. But even your anecdote suggests that they can provide a brief window of clarity. In that window, you can choose to make changes in your life, but making big changes is risky and typically quite difficult. But for folks with clinical depression, these treatments might be a game changer.
outime 7y ago
>in my experience it's unequivocally bullshit >[trip compared to] a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depression for a month or two I think these two are confusing statements if read together. That being said, I think I understand what you mean. From the info I’ve gathered, almost everybody agrees with you. It’s not a magic cure. Sure, someone might argue it is but you’ll find that person everywhere. But for someone with severe depression who can’t see beyond the wall could be really valuable experience, since otherwise couldn’t go (or even afford) going on a very intense vacation in a foreign country. Sometimes you may need clarity to deal with the problems that otherwise depression wouldn’t let you (or wouldn’t even let you see them). But I guess (because I haven’t tried this, but read a lot) it’s all about the mindset you approach this.
scotty79 7y ago
> First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That's why they are trying to turn it into therapy instead of advising sick people to experiment wildly. They know there's an effect, now they know it's safe. What's left to establish is what's the most efficient protocol for using it.
chronofar 7y ago
First of all, there is a wide delta of difference between taking these substances recreationally and in a clinical setting. Any clinician involved with these trials is not going to equivocate their use in treating depression with your weekend in the woods with your friends. Second if we are talking recreationally I have met many, many people on a third path there: the understanding that psychedelics offer a beautiful alternate window with which to perceive things and they can tend to have a heightened awareness and appreciation while otherwise being just like many in that they answer slack messages or [insert mundane work task here]. Thirdly the mind in question is more important than psychedelics or slack messages. One can view either as a hellish prison or a wonderful gift, and in either case this perspective is likely to prove itself out. There is no magic cure to gift inner peace, nor is inner peace at all waking hours a realistic or worthwhile goal for anyone. This does not make psychedelics "bullshit," it means you need more to cultivate a rich inner life than a few altered state experiences. This should not be surprising (though to be sure it is quite often). Fourthly, when you say: > Most people realize that their psychonautic journey is at best leading them in circles, and at worst is causing their life to spiral down the drain. So they give it up, get a job without 9pm slack messages (or find a better way to adjust to stress), marry someone who isn't constantly on the verge of cheating, start doing regular exercise, and generally find a way to settle into a reasonably balanced life. Have you asked these people how they came to their better life there, their job without a 9pm slack message, their healthy marriage, healthy lifestyle, etc? Many would likely attribute at least part of this found balance to their experience with psychedelics. Many people in these trials, a majority in fact, count these experiences among their top 5 most profound life experiences. That's astounding, and anecdotally I've met many more who fit that bill, and of course there are other famous cases who parrot this like Steve Jobs. Psychedelics are not an answer, but they often do illuminate where paths were previously hidden. I believe your cynicism has sliced off only a portion of the truth here and tilted focus in the wrong directions.
- shlant 7y ago
  > "I believe your cynicism has sliced off only a portion of the truth here and tilted focus in the wrong directions." I think his cynicism is completely warranted considering how many people are starting to view psychedelics as a panacea. Do psychedelics offer an experience that could be part of, or even a spark a greater shift? Sure. Could psychedelics provide temporary relief from things like depression and anxiety? Sure. Do most people approach things that are talked about as a solution to life's most difficult problems in a moderate way? Very rarely. Are there VERY REAL and SIGNIFICANT downsides to the misuse of psychedelics? Absolutely. Bad trips are very real and with real, long-term consequences. From my experience with these substances and from my observations of many people who have also used them, I think we should approach the subject from a cautious point of view at the very least. We can throw around studies all we want, but as you pointed out, these are almost all done in a CLINICAL SETTING which is probably the most relevant aspect to the outcome of psychedelic experiences.
orasis 7y ago
Every tool has it’s appropriate use - there is a middle way. I sleep well, eat well, exercise, occasionally micro-dose, and if my brain gets in a really bad place I’ll do a huge reset trip. I’ve been doing this for 10 years and I’m the happiest I’ve ever been. Temet Nosce - Know Thyself
throwawaypa123 7y ago
Third path: It's a fun way to pass the time once in a while. Fourth path: You learn what you need from it, that the world is just various inputs into your brain and gives you perspective to slow down. As an aside, your post is full of negativity. I hope you get the help you need somewhere.
loeg 7y ago
That's a hell of a generalization from an anecdote.
- malux85 7y ago
  I know right - it's an epic extrapolation. I drank a beer 20 years ago and now BAM, cancer. We should ban all this cancer causing beer.
download13 7y ago
I mean, temporary alleviation of symptoms can be extremely valuable. Think of how many people are on SSRIs that have mixed effectiveness, side-effects, and have to be taken daily. Then compare that with a treatment that you do once a month and whose main side-effect is a heightened sense of empathy. Even if it doesn't permanently get rid of depression and anxiety, and solve all of your underlying problems it's still a big step forward relative to the current state-of-the-art treatments. I can speak to how nice it is to just feel fine for a while and get some respite from a constant feeling of fear and anxiety at everything. It's a world of difference, and could easily be the difference between someone not even being able to get out of bed, and actually taking a crack at doing things.
01100011 7y ago
IME, my various neuroses are correlated with my productivity. Sure, I can eat shrooms and feel better, but I'm too happy and mellow to get anything done. Soon, the stress from not keeping up builds and I'm back on the wheel again. I did have some luck using mild amounts to combat the negative cognitive effects of smoking too much pot(mostly verbal deficiencies), but in the end it was better to just stop smoking pot. I'm glad we're finally discussing the potential of psychedelics. I think they will help researchers understand what makes us who we are. I know we're better off not locking people up for using or possessing these substances. I do not think that the personal use of these drugs will notably advance society however.
- Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
  > Sure, I can eat shrooms and feel better, but I'm too happy and mellow to get anything done. That should tell you about the true nature of your motivation. If you are only productive when you are unhappy, it likely means that you are trying to motivate yourself with negative thoughts and judging and compulsive feelings, it means you do productive things while using a stick to constantly keep yourself in fear of hitting yourself with it if you're not productive. If anything, this is the message the mushrooms are trying to tell you. But it is still up to you to change your patterns in response to that message.
sev 7y ago
It is not a cure for the root cause of anything. I like to think of it as a tool that helps you get out of writers block. You still have to write once you’re unblocked; it won’t be able to write for you.
malux85 7y ago
No, your conclusion is bullshit. > First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That makes sense to me in a sense that the word "trip" isn't a coincidence-- a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depression for a month or two. You swear that when you come back things will be different, but then you have to answer slack messages at 9pm, and your project is slipping at work, and your wife is flirting with strangers every time you go to a bar, and well... in a month or two you're back to feeling exactly the same way you did before (until you take the next vacation Your problems are situational, and when you remove yourself from that situation (using mushrooms or not) your life gets better and when you come back it's worse. It's not the mushrooms fault your life is a mess. Why are you answering slack messages at 9PM? Quit your job or just don't do it. Get rid of your wife if she's making you unhappy. Do you think that maybe you should be giving your wife your attention at 9PM, rather than slack? How is this not painfully obvious?! Some people just love misery, it's like - you have identified all your problems but rather than solve them you'll just sit around and point fingers and complain. What did you expect? You'd take a mushroom and your wife disappears? Or transforms into a princess? You take a mushroom and your slack messages start answering themselves at 9PM? What did you actually expect from the mushrooms?
- lowdose 7y ago
  Brutal honesty at its best. If everyone had the guts to talk this tone to their boss the world would look a lot better.
  - mda 7y ago
    Well there is a saying "It is easy for a single man to divorce a wife". I am not sure his suggestion is practical also tone is terrible. I hope they can cope with other people who are being "brutally honest" with them being a jerk in real life.
    - lowdose 7y ago
      I read love your wife more in the morning because her soliciting other guys in front of you is the most obvious sign she will give before filing for a divorce herself. If no one tells you this , you can't solve problem number one. Problem number one always results in no sex followed by a system break down hence the princess comment. In the western society women initiate 2/3 of the divorces. GP is nuanced giving a helicopter view on the personal projection at hand so it doesn't dilute the actual news brought here to light . If this tone sounds offensive we could ask HN to introduce emojis. Someone once said something about a hammer the same applies for the mushroom. Edit: your original comment included in Turkey we have a saying.
karpodiem 7y ago
Take the red pill - go to the gym and get jacked. It will solve many of your problems.
- KennyCason 7y ago
  Do both! But I will certainly always advocate for increasing physical health. It has an absolutely amazing ability to increase your own happiness and mood. I can confirm with myself as a single anecdote. :)
- collyw 7y ago
  There are so many interesting ways of getting / staying fit. Rock Climbing, Skiing, Mountain Biking, Hiking. They often involve going to beautiful locations or at the very least getting out of the city. Why you would suggest the gym (repetitive activity with a load of other sweaty people) is beyond me...
  - karpodiem 7y ago
    Because high muscle mass and low body fat is universally what women want/find attractive.
ailideex 7y ago
I have done a buttload of LSD, not so much shrooms but also some. - I never thought it would cure my depression, but then again I have never seen my depression as something to be cured. It has helped me understand that my depression is a reasonable consequence of how I live my life and it also made me understand what choices I would have to make to change it. - It never made me feel like my life is full of meaning - it actually showed me how the lack of meaning in my life is related to my depression. It also helped me understand the complexity of meaning and made it clear to me what would be needed to have a meaningful life. - Psychedelics has not made me worse at my job, it has not caused me to spiral, it has not driven me to other drugs. The experiences I have never once made me want to grow my hair, nor go to festivals, nor talk of energy and chi and chakras - and in general I avoid taking it with or close to other people. I don't now how you got to that at all really but I think it was bad influences in your life more than the psychedelics. If anything my psychedelic journey has made me maybe more conservative than I used to be and I am less likely to believe in any kind of woo like chi and chakras than I was before I took it. I would not really recommend anybody take LSD or psychedelics - but I think it have had a very positive influence on my life and if anything I regret not taking it more often.
- M0T0K0 7y ago
  This has been similar to my experiences; definitely less liberal but not explicitly more conservative, more technocratic perhaps. Also became increasingly atheist & materialist after a few times. Don’t move the mental furniture around if you’re already content with the brain-room, I’d say.
KennyCason 7y ago
I think I understand your sentiment when applied to a subset of people. Specifically people who’s lives may be a mess and they are leaning too heavily too drugs to change their lives. I don’t think psychedelics alone should be used for that. I feel that people (yourself as well) are being far too focused on psychedelics usage for healing/treatment. There is another aspect to psychedelics where you literally experience something transcendental. that experience alone can be humbling, terrifying, amazing, or any other range of feelings. It can certainly be learning. Something that you perhaps can’t even put into words. And even many of the experiences that you are be able to somehow find words or metaphors to describe, the new perspective(s) can be interesting at worst case. They can show you knew ways to think of problems or even serve as new creative ideas for art, and of course cause you to make various changes to improve your life. I could probably easily name 100+ interesting thoughts that psychedelics have showed me and I certainly haven’t dabbled anywhere close to 100 times and don’t really feel the need to. There is also of course also doing them for the pure enjoyment of them. For example, I’d wager many people would prefer a psychedelic experience over being drunk. Much in the same way that people may prefer marijuana over alcohol.
zer0tonin 7y ago
I don't think everyone who has taken shrooms/psychedelics is taking them to alleviate depression. I mean not everyone has depression in the first place and I'm pretty sure non-depressed people would still feel the effects.
e4325f 7y ago
What on earth are you going on about
HeadsUpHigh 7y ago
What exactly do you expect was going to happen? The entire point is to identify the issues so you can take action. You seem to know what the issues are already. Also, there's a good chance your wife is already cheating on you. Maybe those late slack messages have something to do with it.
badrabbit 7y ago
First,hope everything is ok with you, if not, I hope it will be :) Second, you're talking about curing the disease and I agree with you 100%. I don't like or promote psychedelics but from what I understand they are in this context to be seen as solutions to symptoms much like antidepressants and pain killers where they merely give you enough breathing room to where you can focus on fixing the root cause instead of chasing after ways to alleviate symptoms.
josephdviviano 7y ago
I think the enlightenment of psychedelics is often oversold, but it isn't naught either. These experiences are one way of proving to yourself that your perceptions are not a clear window, they're more like stained glass. The majik is when you realize how to mold and shape that stained glass such that it leads you to make better decisions, and gain more control over your own experience.
ecoled_ame 7y ago
Lol. I’ve done a ton of psychedelics and now I’m just one calm and cool cat. The drugs taught me to work my science job, never speak outside of work, ride my skateboard, play video games, don’t get involved with women, sleep a lot, eat good. It’s all the benefits of ego death.
TheOperator 7y ago
I took a lot of psychadelics, stopped, and started using them again rarely. I'll occasionally take extremely small doses to self-medicate acute depression but it makes me overly impulsive. I read a lot of experiences from people who went down both the paths you're talking about so I just avoided them. Rather than not using and considering it inevitable that for years I would be using psychadelics in a degenerate way. I approached them with the mindset that they are a tool to look at problems from a different perspective and accelerate certain forms of thinking. However this tool, independant of actual self-improvement, was not only useless but self-destructive. I ended up having subjectively worse mental health after the psychadelics. Although the psychadelics were a desperation attempt in the first place so take this with a grain of salt. At the same time my life OBJECTIVELY became much better. Better diet, more exercise, more social life, stronger, more cash, all that jazz. I basically turned around a situation where I was completely trapped in poverty and despair to one where by a good number of measures I was pretty successful. So I do find it interesting to read about how people who take psychadelics are all deluded into thinking they're doing well when they're doing awfully. Since that's precisely the opposite of what I experienced.
yahwrong 7y ago
My favorite aspect of Psilocybin is how it makes everything seem so mathematically connected. The affects on one's emotional state is surprising. Probably a good thing, but to me secondary.
munchhausen 7y ago
The drugs are not supposed to get you there. They are supposed to show you the territory, lift you, temporarily, out of the slime and muck of the dark age of materialism. The rest is up to you, whether it's the third path, fourth path, or the umpteenth path.

pmoriarty 7y ago

Counter-counter anecdote: I was just listening to an interview[1] with Dennis McKenna[2] (brother of Terence McKenna[3]) in which he said: "If I'm going to take it [a psychedelic substance] I'm going to pay attention to it. It's sort of like you have an opportunity to sit with someone who's very wise and they have stuff to tell you and so they deserve that respect. That's what's changed. I give it my respect. "And sometimes people say, well, you've been doing this 50 years haven't you got the lesson yet? .. there's one perspective that says 'once you get the message hang up the phone'. "Well, maybe I'm a slow learner but I'm still learning from these things. They're not like an answering machine. It's not like there's only one message. "It's like if you had a mentor, a teacher, someone who you respect you're not going to reach a point where you say, 'well, basically I've learned everything you have to tell me so thank you very much and I'll be on my way.' Chances are they still know more and they always will know more than you will know. "Every time I take ayahuasca or mushrooms I learn something new or I am reminded of what I've forgotten, what's easy to forget in the day-to-day hustle of life. I just feel it's still valuable. In some ways it's a touchstone. It's a way of getting back to that place, that sacred space, sacred time environment where you can remind yourself of the eternal truths." Second counter-anecdote: Ram Dass[4], in his 80's after suffering a stroke, when asked in an interview that I can't find at the moment about what LSD has done for him replied "I'm happy. I've had a stroke and I'm happy. That's LSD." [1] - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGYm5OdvwNs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGYm5OdvwNs [2] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_McKenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dennis_McKenna [3] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrence_McKenna https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terrence_McKenna [4] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_dass https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_dass

scotty79 7y ago
Sounds exactly like running in circles...
shlant 7y ago
I think referencing the leaders of the psychedelic movement would be a pretty biased argument for psychedelic use. Survivorship bias would also be a factor. I want to echo the sentiment of the OP - I have yet to meet someone who does not go down one of the two paths described. Either they continue to do various psychedelic substances over the years claiming to have solved all their problems while a cursory examination shows their lives continue to be a mess.... or they stop looking at it as a panacea and start making meaningful changes in their lives that actually have a long-term positive impact (this is my own experience). I don't have a problem with using psychedelics IN A RESPONSIBLE WAY for short term relief from symptoms of a greater issue that actually requires concrete, meaningful action to address. Maybe the relief, from depression for example, is enough to find the motivation to take those actions. HOWEVER - most people tend to be very black and white in their thinking and don't see it as treating a symptom - they see it as a solution to all their problems. You see it over and over again with various approaches - fasting, keto and psychedelics being the current fads. There is no panacea for living a healthy, fulfilling life. It takes conscious, persistent shifts on many different levels. There is no cure-all. There never has been, and never will be.

vokep 7y ago

I think this is relevant https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21590028 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21590028 I see what you mean and you're certainly right for a segment of the population that seems to get caught on the high without much skepticism of it. That said, it is in not bullshit, and its not bullshit precisely because of what cite as being the bullshit: People take it and get the same benefit as going on a multi-week vacation. At least that can happen. Given you report your own experimentation, I'm curious if you mean psychedelics as a whole or specifically psilocybin? I'm curious of this because while I have experienced significant change in my worldview as a result of LSD trips, I had none of the same from shrooms. They're fun for sure, but I felt the next day the same I would if I spent the same time smoking cannabis. Family members of mine also have had shrooms and similarly found little to no productive value in them, but have found value in LSD. The temptation to suspect a genetic link is obvious, but of course thats just my n=1. When on LSD I tried a sort of self-therapy that seemed extremely successful, thinking through issues and considering new narratives of worldview. I've also had LSD trips where I didn't attempt such self-therapy, and found that I woke the next day feeling no different. I also tried self-therapy on shrooms and thought it was working during the trip, but woke up feeling just the same as before. So I think methodical thought through whatever is making the person feel depressed is absolutely necessary if any success is to be expected. I suspect that many of the people who have gotten the best of the benefits of psychedelics and led successful lives are just not so vocal about it. I feel LSD has majorly helped me, but I'm really not about to go preaching that, because while it helped, it wasn't the only component. I also made the choices to use what I learned on it and change how I behave.

throwawaycanada 7y ago

For a lot of people when it "works" for them is when they discover they no longer need the drug at all and feel they know more about themselves. You describe it here: "Most people realize that their psychonautic journey is at best leading them in circles, and at worst is causing their life to spiral down the drain. So they give it up, get a job without 9pm slack messages (or find a better way to adjust to stress), marry someone who isn't constantly on the verge of cheating, start doing regular exercise, and generally find a way to settle into a reasonably balanced life." Perhaps this period of self examination is what leads so many to such similar conclusions?

klyrs 7y ago

If your life sucks, depression is a completely reasonable side effect. Clinical depression is a different beast -- even on great days, free of external stressors, you're wont to feel miserable. Mushrooms won't fix your life. But even your anecdote suggests that they can provide a brief window of clarity. In that window, you can choose to make changes in your life, but making big changes is risky and typically quite difficult. But for folks with clinical depression, these treatments might be a game changer.

outime 7y ago

>in my experience it's unequivocally bullshit >[trip compared to] a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depression for a month or two I think these two are confusing statements if read together. That being said, I think I understand what you mean. From the info I’ve gathered, almost everybody agrees with you. It’s not a magic cure. Sure, someone might argue it is but you’ll find that person everywhere. But for someone with severe depression who can’t see beyond the wall could be really valuable experience, since otherwise couldn’t go (or even afford) going on a very intense vacation in a foreign country. Sometimes you may need clarity to deal with the problems that otherwise depression wouldn’t let you (or wouldn’t even let you see them). But I guess (because I haven’t tried this, but read a lot) it’s all about the mindset you approach this.

scotty79 7y ago

> First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That's why they are trying to turn it into therapy instead of advising sick people to experiment wildly. They know there's an effect, now they know it's safe. What's left to establish is what's the most efficient protocol for using it.

chronofar 7y ago

First of all, there is a wide delta of difference between taking these substances recreationally and in a clinical setting. Any clinician involved with these trials is not going to equivocate their use in treating depression with your weekend in the woods with your friends. Second if we are talking recreationally I have met many, many people on a third path there: the understanding that psychedelics offer a beautiful alternate window with which to perceive things and they can tend to have a heightened awareness and appreciation while otherwise being just like many in that they answer slack messages or [insert mundane work task here]. Thirdly the mind in question is more important than psychedelics or slack messages. One can view either as a hellish prison or a wonderful gift, and in either case this perspective is likely to prove itself out. There is no magic cure to gift inner peace, nor is inner peace at all waking hours a realistic or worthwhile goal for anyone. This does not make psychedelics "bullshit," it means you need more to cultivate a rich inner life than a few altered state experiences. This should not be surprising (though to be sure it is quite often). Fourthly, when you say: > Most people realize that their psychonautic journey is at best leading them in circles, and at worst is causing their life to spiral down the drain. So they give it up, get a job without 9pm slack messages (or find a better way to adjust to stress), marry someone who isn't constantly on the verge of cheating, start doing regular exercise, and generally find a way to settle into a reasonably balanced life. Have you asked these people how they came to their better life there, their job without a 9pm slack message, their healthy marriage, healthy lifestyle, etc? Many would likely attribute at least part of this found balance to their experience with psychedelics. Many people in these trials, a majority in fact, count these experiences among their top 5 most profound life experiences. That's astounding, and anecdotally I've met many more who fit that bill, and of course there are other famous cases who parrot this like Steve Jobs. Psychedelics are not an answer, but they often do illuminate where paths were previously hidden. I believe your cynicism has sliced off only a portion of the truth here and tilted focus in the wrong directions.

shlant 7y ago
> "I believe your cynicism has sliced off only a portion of the truth here and tilted focus in the wrong directions." I think his cynicism is completely warranted considering how many people are starting to view psychedelics as a panacea. Do psychedelics offer an experience that could be part of, or even a spark a greater shift? Sure. Could psychedelics provide temporary relief from things like depression and anxiety? Sure. Do most people approach things that are talked about as a solution to life's most difficult problems in a moderate way? Very rarely. Are there VERY REAL and SIGNIFICANT downsides to the misuse of psychedelics? Absolutely. Bad trips are very real and with real, long-term consequences. From my experience with these substances and from my observations of many people who have also used them, I think we should approach the subject from a cautious point of view at the very least. We can throw around studies all we want, but as you pointed out, these are almost all done in a CLINICAL SETTING which is probably the most relevant aspect to the outcome of psychedelic experiences.

orasis 7y ago

Every tool has it’s appropriate use - there is a middle way. I sleep well, eat well, exercise, occasionally micro-dose, and if my brain gets in a really bad place I’ll do a huge reset trip. I’ve been doing this for 10 years and I’m the happiest I’ve ever been. Temet Nosce - Know Thyself

throwawaypa123 7y ago

Third path: It's a fun way to pass the time once in a while. Fourth path: You learn what you need from it, that the world is just various inputs into your brain and gives you perspective to slow down. As an aside, your post is full of negativity. I hope you get the help you need somewhere.

loeg 7y ago

That's a hell of a generalization from an anecdote.

malux85 7y ago
I know right - it's an epic extrapolation. I drank a beer 20 years ago and now BAM, cancer. We should ban all this cancer causing beer.

download13 7y ago

I mean, temporary alleviation of symptoms can be extremely valuable. Think of how many people are on SSRIs that have mixed effectiveness, side-effects, and have to be taken daily. Then compare that with a treatment that you do once a month and whose main side-effect is a heightened sense of empathy. Even if it doesn't permanently get rid of depression and anxiety, and solve all of your underlying problems it's still a big step forward relative to the current state-of-the-art treatments. I can speak to how nice it is to just feel fine for a while and get some respite from a constant feeling of fear and anxiety at everything. It's a world of difference, and could easily be the difference between someone not even being able to get out of bed, and actually taking a crack at doing things.

01100011 7y ago

IME, my various neuroses are correlated with my productivity. Sure, I can eat shrooms and feel better, but I'm too happy and mellow to get anything done. Soon, the stress from not keeping up builds and I'm back on the wheel again. I did have some luck using mild amounts to combat the negative cognitive effects of smoking too much pot(mostly verbal deficiencies), but in the end it was better to just stop smoking pot. I'm glad we're finally discussing the potential of psychedelics. I think they will help researchers understand what makes us who we are. I know we're better off not locking people up for using or possessing these substances. I do not think that the personal use of these drugs will notably advance society however.

Erlich_Bachman 7y ago
> Sure, I can eat shrooms and feel better, but I'm too happy and mellow to get anything done. That should tell you about the true nature of your motivation. If you are only productive when you are unhappy, it likely means that you are trying to motivate yourself with negative thoughts and judging and compulsive feelings, it means you do productive things while using a stick to constantly keep yourself in fear of hitting yourself with it if you're not productive. If anything, this is the message the mushrooms are trying to tell you. But it is still up to you to change your patterns in response to that message.

sev 7y ago

It is not a cure for the root cause of anything. I like to think of it as a tool that helps you get out of writers block. You still have to write once you’re unblocked; it won’t be able to write for you.

malux85 7y ago

No, your conclusion is bullshit. > First, any given trip alleviates depression for about a month or two. That makes sense to me in a sense that the word "trip" isn't a coincidence-- a really fun intense vacation in a foreign country also alleviates depression for a month or two. You swear that when you come back things will be different, but then you have to answer slack messages at 9pm, and your project is slipping at work, and your wife is flirting with strangers every time you go to a bar, and well... in a month or two you're back to feeling exactly the same way you did before (until you take the next vacation Your problems are situational, and when you remove yourself from that situation (using mushrooms or not) your life gets better and when you come back it's worse. It's not the mushrooms fault your life is a mess. Why are you answering slack messages at 9PM? Quit your job or just don't do it. Get rid of your wife if she's making you unhappy. Do you think that maybe you should be giving your wife your attention at 9PM, rather than slack? How is this not painfully obvious?! Some people just love misery, it's like - you have identified all your problems but rather than solve them you'll just sit around and point fingers and complain. What did you expect? You'd take a mushroom and your wife disappears? Or transforms into a princess? You take a mushroom and your slack messages start answering themselves at 9PM? What did you actually expect from the mushrooms?

lowdose 7y ago
Brutal honesty at its best. If everyone had the guts to talk this tone to their boss the world would look a lot better.
- mda 7y ago
  Well there is a saying "It is easy for a single man to divorce a wife". I am not sure his suggestion is practical also tone is terrible. I hope they can cope with other people who are being "brutally honest" with them being a jerk in real life.
  - lowdose 7y ago
    I read love your wife more in the morning because her soliciting other guys in front of you is the most obvious sign she will give before filing for a divorce herself. If no one tells you this , you can't solve problem number one. Problem number one always results in no sex followed by a system break down hence the princess comment. In the western society women initiate 2/3 of the divorces. GP is nuanced giving a helicopter view on the personal projection at hand so it doesn't dilute the actual news brought here to light . If this tone sounds offensive we could ask HN to introduce emojis. Someone once said something about a hammer the same applies for the mushroom. Edit: your original comment included in Turkey we have a saying.

karpodiem 7y ago

Take the red pill - go to the gym and get jacked. It will solve many of your problems.

KennyCason 7y ago
Do both! But I will certainly always advocate for increasing physical health. It has an absolutely amazing ability to increase your own happiness and mood. I can confirm with myself as a single anecdote. :)
collyw 7y ago
There are so many interesting ways of getting / staying fit. Rock Climbing, Skiing, Mountain Biking, Hiking. They often involve going to beautiful locations or at the very least getting out of the city. Why you would suggest the gym (repetitive activity with a load of other sweaty people) is beyond me...
- karpodiem 7y ago
  Because high muscle mass and low body fat is universally what women want/find attractive.

ailideex 7y ago

I have done a buttload of LSD, not so much shrooms but also some. - I never thought it would cure my depression, but then again I have never seen my depression as something to be cured. It has helped me understand that my depression is a reasonable consequence of how I live my life and it also made me understand what choices I would have to make to change it. - It never made me feel like my life is full of meaning - it actually showed me how the lack of meaning in my life is related to my depression. It also helped me understand the complexity of meaning and made it clear to me what would be needed to have a meaningful life. - Psychedelics has not made me worse at my job, it has not caused me to spiral, it has not driven me to other drugs. The experiences I have never once made me want to grow my hair, nor go to festivals, nor talk of energy and chi and chakras - and in general I avoid taking it with or close to other people. I don't now how you got to that at all really but I think it was bad influences in your life more than the psychedelics. If anything my psychedelic journey has made me maybe more conservative than I used to be and I am less likely to believe in any kind of woo like chi and chakras than I was before I took it. I would not really recommend anybody take LSD or psychedelics - but I think it have had a very positive influence on my life and if anything I regret not taking it more often.

M0T0K0 7y ago
This has been similar to my experiences; definitely less liberal but not explicitly more conservative, more technocratic perhaps. Also became increasingly atheist & materialist after a few times. Don’t move the mental furniture around if you’re already content with the brain-room, I’d say.

KennyCason 7y ago

I think I understand your sentiment when applied to a subset of people. Specifically people who’s lives may be a mess and they are leaning too heavily too drugs to change their lives. I don’t think psychedelics alone should be used for that. I feel that people (yourself as well) are being far too focused on psychedelics usage for healing/treatment. There is another aspect to psychedelics where you literally experience something transcendental. that experience alone can be humbling, terrifying, amazing, or any other range of feelings. It can certainly be learning. Something that you perhaps can’t even put into words. And even many of the experiences that you are be able to somehow find words or metaphors to describe, the new perspective(s) can be interesting at worst case. They can show you knew ways to think of problems or even serve as new creative ideas for art, and of course cause you to make various changes to improve your life. I could probably easily name 100+ interesting thoughts that psychedelics have showed me and I certainly haven’t dabbled anywhere close to 100 times and don’t really feel the need to. There is also of course also doing them for the pure enjoyment of them. For example, I’d wager many people would prefer a psychedelic experience over being drunk. Much in the same way that people may prefer marijuana over alcohol.

zer0tonin 7y ago

I don't think everyone who has taken shrooms/psychedelics is taking them to alleviate depression. I mean not everyone has depression in the first place and I'm pretty sure non-depressed people would still feel the effects.

e4325f 7y ago

What on earth are you going on about

HeadsUpHigh 7y ago

What exactly do you expect was going to happen? The entire point is to identify the issues so you can take action. You seem to know what the issues are already. Also, there's a good chance your wife is already cheating on you. Maybe those late slack messages have something to do with it.

badrabbit 7y ago

First,hope everything is ok with you, if not, I hope it will be :) Second, you're talking about curing the disease and I agree with you 100%. I don't like or promote psychedelics but from what I understand they are in this context to be seen as solutions to symptoms much like antidepressants and pain killers where they merely give you enough breathing room to where you can focus on fixing the root cause instead of chasing after ways to alleviate symptoms.

josephdviviano 7y ago

I think the enlightenment of psychedelics is often oversold, but it isn't naught either. These experiences are one way of proving to yourself that your perceptions are not a clear window, they're more like stained glass. The majik is when you realize how to mold and shape that stained glass such that it leads you to make better decisions, and gain more control over your own experience.

ecoled_ame 7y ago

Lol. I’ve done a ton of psychedelics and now I’m just one calm and cool cat. The drugs taught me to work my science job, never speak outside of work, ride my skateboard, play video games, don’t get involved with women, sleep a lot, eat good. It’s all the benefits of ego death.

TheOperator 7y ago

I took a lot of psychadelics, stopped, and started using them again rarely. I'll occasionally take extremely small doses to self-medicate acute depression but it makes me overly impulsive. I read a lot of experiences from people who went down both the paths you're talking about so I just avoided them. Rather than not using and considering it inevitable that for years I would be using psychadelics in a degenerate way. I approached them with the mindset that they are a tool to look at problems from a different perspective and accelerate certain forms of thinking. However this tool, independant of actual self-improvement, was not only useless but self-destructive. I ended up having subjectively worse mental health after the psychadelics. Although the psychadelics were a desperation attempt in the first place so take this with a grain of salt. At the same time my life OBJECTIVELY became much better. Better diet, more exercise, more social life, stronger, more cash, all that jazz. I basically turned around a situation where I was completely trapped in poverty and despair to one where by a good number of measures I was pretty successful. So I do find it interesting to read about how people who take psychadelics are all deluded into thinking they're doing well when they're doing awfully. Since that's precisely the opposite of what I experienced.

yahwrong 7y ago

My favorite aspect of Psilocybin is how it makes everything seem so mathematically connected. The affects on one's emotional state is surprising. Probably a good thing, but to me secondary.

munchhausen 7y ago

The drugs are not supposed to get you there. They are supposed to show you the territory, lift you, temporarily, out of the slime and muck of the dark age of materialism. The rest is up to you, whether it's the third path, fourth path, or the umpteenth path.