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Ideally I'd like to start with nothing, a la Survivorman http://www.lesstroud.ca/survivorman/ http://www.lesstroud.ca/survivorman/ and Primitive Technology htt

Ideally I'd like to start with nothing, a la Survivorman http://www.lesstroud.ca/survivorman/ http://www.lesstroud.ca/survivorman/ and Primitive Technology https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA/videos https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCAL3JXZSzSm8AlZyD3nQdBA/vid... That being a bit too long a jump for most people involved in my attempt, I want a progressive one-step-down on everything we use. Home > camper > tent > hammock > foliage > open ground. Stove > grill > campfire > fire drill. Canned food > MRE > dry goods > foraging > hunt/trap. Cheap gear > ultralight gear > iron/leather/wool gear > make your own out there. The "cell phone bad" issue comes from a new generation fixated on a magic glass slate which mysteriously supplies nearly all their needs, able to conjure up food/shelter/transport/society with just a few taps on some runes - and the users have no idea how it works, nor what they would do without it. Even if they do indeed spend most of their lives relying on it, they must have enough competence & competence to be dropped anywhere in the country, with nothing, and confidently find their way back to safety & society. Too many can't even get home from school/work without a GPS & mapping app. FWIW: I grew up on wood heat (northern US), raised half our own food, did own car repairs, sewed, had wood/metal/electronic/photo shops, etc. Modern luxuries are, well, luxurious but I aspire to a remote log cabin on a mountain lake with a Starlink connection.

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
> Even if they do indeed spend most of their lives relying on it, they must have enough competence & competence to be dropped anywhere in the country, with nothing, and confidently find their way back to safety & society. Why? What use case are you thinking here? That's survivalist escapist fantasy stuff, nothing to do with the requirements of most modern living. Even in the case of the hypothetical EMP natural disaster, you're probably not in wilderness, you're in a major metropolis surrounded by people and navigating social dynamics will be more important than being able to sew a goat into a cape.
- ctdonath 7y ago
  Because that assures sufficient skills for any situation, an awareness of supply chain providence all the way back to natural dirt, and self-confidence transcending anything life can throw at you. Even the CDC has discovered "zombie apocalypse preparedness" as a means of ensuring people are trained to handle any situation. Sounds preposterous, yes, but in doing so you know you're ready. The problem with modern living (now app-based) is that power, data, food, fuel, water, and/or money outages leave too many people quickly desperate. Can you quickly preserve the food in your fridge/freezer without electricity? Can you acquire clean water when the tap runs dry? Do you even know where your food/water comes from, and why that matters? This even extends into sociopolitical policy, regarding how governments redistribute taxes to people who ... wait for it ... are incapable of providing for their basic needs when bad things happen, because they don't know how to provide for basic needs when bad things happen. It's raining outside right now. Have you ever, in earnest, gathered rainwater for drinking? ever even considered it seriously? How reliant on strangers are you for the most important necessity?
  - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
    > Because that assures sufficient skills for any situation, an awareness of supply chain providence all the way back to natural dirt, and self-confidence transcending anything life can throw at you. Unless of course it's a modern problem requiring communicating with someone a thousand miles away. I have no idea how you think a metropolitan centre of millions people, even if all trained in wilderness survival skills, would be able to sustain themselves. They couldn't - there's no way you could feed everyone in a major city by foraging or by killing all the rats or finding wild mushrooms. And I guess you could try to navigate out of city by foot, but you're hoping you're going to be able to outrun the general diaspora. It's a survivalist power fantasy.
    - ctdonath 7y ago
      If you understand the complete technology stack, there is no "unless". Thousand-mile communications included. And if you understand the complete technology stack, you'll reconsider living in a metropolitan centre.
      - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
        I still have no idea what apocalypse you're planning for - it's something that you don't have water for, but you do have reliable power, or a generator you'll trust to function after whatever happens. Or you don't plan for any of that, but just assume you can do whatever you need at any time, like a Bear Grylls James Bond. Understanding how a cell phone works won't help you if you're reduced to stone age tech. Even "iron" would have a hard step to get to with nothing. Stone age man didn't have cell phones not just because they didn't know how to build one, there's layers and layers of society that are relied on in order to work towards modern society. > And if you understand the complete technology stack, you'll reconsider living in a metropolitan centre. Only if I assume some survivalist power fantasy fiction will come to pass.
  - planteen 7y ago
    > Can you quickly preserve the food in your fridge/freezer without electricity? What do you even mean by this? "The power is out kids! Start a bonfire in the front yard, we're making pemmican and jerky!" In all seriousness, I've been through a number of multi-day power outages. You leave the door to your fridge/freezer shut as much as possible. When you open it, you make it infrequent and fast. They are well insulated, things stay cold for a long time.
- type0 7y ago
  > probably not in wilderness, you're in a major metropolis surrounded by people and navigating social dynamics will be more important than being able to sew a goat into a cape. Get to know your local HAM radio enthusiasts.
  - ctdonath 7y ago
    Or become one. Just passing the basic test teaches far down the technology stack from cell phone magic.
Wowfunhappy 7y ago
> and the users have no idea how it works I don't see how making people use their phone less helps with this, at all. > nor what they would do without it. I have a terrible memory and need to write everything down. If you took away my ability to read and write, I don't know how I would do anything. Is there anything wrong with this?
- ctdonath 7y ago
  That's ... kinda the point. You have a gigantic blind spot which, tautologically, you can't see. Traveling significant distances under your own power, carrying what you can and living off the land otherwise, being forced to learn how food comes from the earth, being forced to exercise your memory, would do you good in revealing & eliminating that blind spot.
  - Wowfunhappy 7y ago
    I'm extremely unconvinced that would be the best use of my time. I would rather become as adept as possible with the tools I have in today's world.
    - ctdonath 7y ago
      Question is: what happens when those tools fail? How far down the technology stack can you function? I'm not suggesting a large/dominating percentage of your time go to this. I am suggesting you (and the kids in question) go off-grid to see what extends beyond "today's world" and how others live in it without the tools you have.
      - XorNot 7y ago
        Why? Are those tools going to fail? Are you going to destroy them? Because here's the thing: if those tools fail, you die of dysentery. Go enjoy the outdoors all you want if that's what you want to do, but this fantasy you're totally setting yourself up to survive...something? is just that - a fantasy.

SketchySeaBeast 7y ago

> Even if they do indeed spend most of their lives relying on it, they must have enough competence & competence to be dropped anywhere in the country, with nothing, and confidently find their way back to safety & society. Why? What use case are you thinking here? That's survivalist escapist fantasy stuff, nothing to do with the requirements of most modern living. Even in the case of the hypothetical EMP natural disaster, you're probably not in wilderness, you're in a major metropolis surrounded by people and navigating social dynamics will be more important than being able to sew a goat into a cape.

ctdonath 7y ago
Because that assures sufficient skills for any situation, an awareness of supply chain providence all the way back to natural dirt, and self-confidence transcending anything life can throw at you. Even the CDC has discovered "zombie apocalypse preparedness" as a means of ensuring people are trained to handle any situation. Sounds preposterous, yes, but in doing so you know you're ready. The problem with modern living (now app-based) is that power, data, food, fuel, water, and/or money outages leave too many people quickly desperate. Can you quickly preserve the food in your fridge/freezer without electricity? Can you acquire clean water when the tap runs dry? Do you even know where your food/water comes from, and why that matters? This even extends into sociopolitical policy, regarding how governments redistribute taxes to people who ... wait for it ... are incapable of providing for their basic needs when bad things happen, because they don't know how to provide for basic needs when bad things happen. It's raining outside right now. Have you ever, in earnest, gathered rainwater for drinking? ever even considered it seriously? How reliant on strangers are you for the most important necessity?
- SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
  > Because that assures sufficient skills for any situation, an awareness of supply chain providence all the way back to natural dirt, and self-confidence transcending anything life can throw at you. Unless of course it's a modern problem requiring communicating with someone a thousand miles away. I have no idea how you think a metropolitan centre of millions people, even if all trained in wilderness survival skills, would be able to sustain themselves. They couldn't - there's no way you could feed everyone in a major city by foraging or by killing all the rats or finding wild mushrooms. And I guess you could try to navigate out of city by foot, but you're hoping you're going to be able to outrun the general diaspora. It's a survivalist power fantasy.
  - ctdonath 7y ago
    If you understand the complete technology stack, there is no "unless". Thousand-mile communications included. And if you understand the complete technology stack, you'll reconsider living in a metropolitan centre.
    - SketchySeaBeast 7y ago
      I still have no idea what apocalypse you're planning for - it's something that you don't have water for, but you do have reliable power, or a generator you'll trust to function after whatever happens. Or you don't plan for any of that, but just assume you can do whatever you need at any time, like a Bear Grylls James Bond. Understanding how a cell phone works won't help you if you're reduced to stone age tech. Even "iron" would have a hard step to get to with nothing. Stone age man didn't have cell phones not just because they didn't know how to build one, there's layers and layers of society that are relied on in order to work towards modern society. > And if you understand the complete technology stack, you'll reconsider living in a metropolitan centre. Only if I assume some survivalist power fantasy fiction will come to pass.
- planteen 7y ago
  > Can you quickly preserve the food in your fridge/freezer without electricity? What do you even mean by this? "The power is out kids! Start a bonfire in the front yard, we're making pemmican and jerky!" In all seriousness, I've been through a number of multi-day power outages. You leave the door to your fridge/freezer shut as much as possible. When you open it, you make it infrequent and fast. They are well insulated, things stay cold for a long time.
type0 7y ago
> probably not in wilderness, you're in a major metropolis surrounded by people and navigating social dynamics will be more important than being able to sew a goat into a cape. Get to know your local HAM radio enthusiasts.
- ctdonath 7y ago
  Or become one. Just passing the basic test teaches far down the technology stack from cell phone magic.

Wowfunhappy 7y ago

> and the users have no idea how it works I don't see how making people use their phone less helps with this, at all. > nor what they would do without it. I have a terrible memory and need to write everything down. If you took away my ability to read and write, I don't know how I would do anything. Is there anything wrong with this?

ctdonath 7y ago
That's ... kinda the point. You have a gigantic blind spot which, tautologically, you can't see. Traveling significant distances under your own power, carrying what you can and living off the land otherwise, being forced to learn how food comes from the earth, being forced to exercise your memory, would do you good in revealing & eliminating that blind spot.
- Wowfunhappy 7y ago
  I'm extremely unconvinced that would be the best use of my time. I would rather become as adept as possible with the tools I have in today's world.
  - ctdonath 7y ago
    Question is: what happens when those tools fail? How far down the technology stack can you function? I'm not suggesting a large/dominating percentage of your time go to this. I am suggesting you (and the kids in question) go off-grid to see what extends beyond "today's world" and how others live in it without the tools you have.
    - XorNot 7y ago
      Why? Are those tools going to fail? Are you going to destroy them? Because here's the thing: if those tools fail, you die of dysentery. Go enjoy the outdoors all you want if that's what you want to do, but this fantasy you're totally setting yourself up to survive...something? is just that - a fantasy.