5 ms·

I dont really get how people were able to just walk into military bases. Shouldn't they have fences? And if there's no fence, isn't it just public land that it'

I dont really get how people were able to just walk into military bases. Shouldn't they have fences? And if there's no fence, isn't it just public land that it's OK to walk on?

0xffff2 7y ago
Shouldn't they have fences? In the western US, you will find several remote military bases that include ground and air live-fire ranges that are un-fenced. There are usually signs though. (Some) military bases are very large, making it impractical to maintain complete fencing around them. >And if there's no fence, isn't it just public land that it's OK to walk on? Why would it be?
- archview 7y ago
  Exactly. The US uses shear size as a boundary to entry into the bases. I learned this after reading about the German family who perished in Death Valley and their perilous walk to find help at the nearby military base which proved fruitless. They were looking for a fence and guard towers not realizing they were walking further from help.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  > > And if there's no fence, isn't it just public land that it's OK to walk on? > Why would it be? This isn't the culture in the US, but in some parts of the world, the default assumption is that land is accessible unless it's fenced or otherwise marked. There are some politeness norms like not walking right up to someone's house in the woods, but generally in i.e. Norway, if it's outside, you're probably allowed to be there. The culture in the US seems to come from capitalism being such a part of our culture. Every resource, including land, is viewed as a commodity. Even many of our publicly-owned land which is ostensibly intended for public use, such as state and national parks, has entry fees.
  - wcarron 7y ago
    > The culture in the US seems to come from capitalism being such a part of our culture. Every resource, including land, is viewed as a commodity. Even many of our publicly-owned land which is ostensibly intended for public use, such as state and national parks, has entry fees. It costs money to maintain public lands like national parks. The neanderthals who don't understand Leave No Trace principles cause massive amounts of damage that needs to be prevented, policed, and repaired. Chores like trail maintenance, habitat restoration, wildlife studies, trash removal, toilet upkeep, etc. etc, all need to be done to keep the parks as close as possible to wild, so that the next generation can enjoy it. Entry fees fund the conservation of these public lands.
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      Yes, I'm well aware. I've done some of that work with my own hands. I think you're assuming that I don't think that money is worth it, but on the contrary, I wish the US would invest more money in public land. It costs money to maintain public land, but that's not any less true in the other countries I'm talking about. The difference is that that cost is more likely to come from national budgets, rather than from fees, which is better in a lot of ways: it's more transparent, and is a progressive rather than regressive tax, is better for tourism, etc. Also note that a lot of the non-fenced land in i.e. Norway isn't public land, it's private land, and it's still accessible to the public due to cultural norms. This may seem weird that there's a social expectation that people will open their private property to public use, but the flip side is that there's little cultural opposition to government helping maintain property. Many hiking shelters, for example, are on private property, but built and maintained by the government.
  - justin66 7y ago
    > This isn't the culture in the US, but in some parts of the world, the default assumption is that land is accessible unless it's fenced or otherwise marked. I don't think there is any doubt that these military bases were marked.
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      I was responding to the question in the following exchange: > > And if there's no fence, isn't it just public land that it's OK to walk on? > Why would it be?
  - ars 7y ago
    That's called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam and like you say, it's not the culture in the US. Although land does need to be marked with "No Trespassing" signs in order to gain certain rights under the law.
JeremyBanks 7y ago
Heh. When I was younger, I was lost and distracted (with a paper map, pre-9/11) while driving, and ended up inside CFB Borden (one of the military bases mentioned in the article) without realizing it, by absent-mindedly following traffic. I wonder if someone distracted by Pokemon on their phone could make the same mistake today.
- ZanyProgrammer 7y ago
  Pre 9/11 was almost 20 years ago. Since then most American military installations have controlled access, meaning a DOD id card or something similar (and vehicle decals). It’s possible people might wander (especially on Army posts) onto ranges out in the sticks, but the actual garrison area will be off limits to the public (esp in the Navy and Air Force). A quick glance at Google Maps for some Canadian military installations shows them without gate guards and open to the public.
- how2cflags 7y ago
  Can concur with a personal anecdote. Got lost a few years ago on my motorcycle and was utterly confused when I passed the open gate into the grounds not aware that it was even a military base until I saw all the following signage.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
gravitas 7y ago
> ...isn't it just public land that it's OK to walk on? In the USA, no - it's owned by the federal government and has criminal trespass laws surrounding it just like any other owned property ("land parcel"). https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1634-protection-government-property-military-bases https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1634-pro... Criminal trespass does not generally require a fence or sign in most US states (they say you have greater legal protection if you do post a sign or make a fence, but it's not required - IANAL, I just read the internet :)). https://www.bestofsigns.com/blog/no-trespassing-signs-laws-what-a-sign-can-cant-do-in-all-50-states/ https://www.bestofsigns.com/blog/no-trespassing-signs-laws-w... ...and some states such as my own do not embrace the concept of BLM managing public land the way California does as a unique state; in some states most land is generally considered private and legally owned by (someone or something). https://www.wideopenspaces.com/public-land-texas-brief-history/ https://www.wideopenspaces.com/public-land-texas-brief-histo... and has corresponding state-specific criminal trespass laws. Pulling from another comment comparing Norway culture, roughly 2.5x(?) Norways can fit inside Texas. (edit1: fixed HN markup emphasis)
scj 7y ago
In Canada, the concept is more "Crown Land" than "public land". I don't know the answer to your question, but my instincts pose it in the negative sense: Why would there be a right to be on the Queen's land without permission?
peeters 7y ago
People were walking into non-restricted areas of the military bases that were open to the public. None of the incidents discussed in the article were in restricted areas of the bases. That's not to say they didn't fall under the security of the base, so it would be reasonable for the commissionaires tasked with base security to investigate suspicious activity even in non-restricted areas. E.g. Fort Fontenac, one of the bases named, is the site of a historic battle and so has cultural interest open to the public. But it also has official Canadian Forces business conducted on site. Similarly some of the CFBs have museums etc and are generally open to the public.

I dont really get how people were able to just walk into military bases. Shouldn't they have fences? And if there's no fence, isn't it just public land that it's OK to walk on?

0xffff2 7y ago

Shouldn't they have fences? In the western US, you will find several remote military bases that include ground and air live-fire ranges that are un-fenced. There are usually signs though. (Some) military bases are very large, making it impractical to maintain complete fencing around them. >And if there's no fence, isn't it just public land that it's OK to walk on? Why would it be?

archview 7y ago
Exactly. The US uses shear size as a boundary to entry into the bases. I learned this after reading about the German family who perished in Death Valley and their perilous walk to find help at the nearby military base which proved fruitless. They were looking for a fence and guard towers not realizing they were walking further from help.
kerkeslager 7y ago
> > And if there's no fence, isn't it just public land that it's OK to walk on? > Why would it be? This isn't the culture in the US, but in some parts of the world, the default assumption is that land is accessible unless it's fenced or otherwise marked. There are some politeness norms like not walking right up to someone's house in the woods, but generally in i.e. Norway, if it's outside, you're probably allowed to be there. The culture in the US seems to come from capitalism being such a part of our culture. Every resource, including land, is viewed as a commodity. Even many of our publicly-owned land which is ostensibly intended for public use, such as state and national parks, has entry fees.
- wcarron 7y ago
  > The culture in the US seems to come from capitalism being such a part of our culture. Every resource, including land, is viewed as a commodity. Even many of our publicly-owned land which is ostensibly intended for public use, such as state and national parks, has entry fees. It costs money to maintain public lands like national parks. The neanderthals who don't understand Leave No Trace principles cause massive amounts of damage that needs to be prevented, policed, and repaired. Chores like trail maintenance, habitat restoration, wildlife studies, trash removal, toilet upkeep, etc. etc, all need to be done to keep the parks as close as possible to wild, so that the next generation can enjoy it. Entry fees fund the conservation of these public lands.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    Yes, I'm well aware. I've done some of that work with my own hands. I think you're assuming that I don't think that money is worth it, but on the contrary, I wish the US would invest more money in public land. It costs money to maintain public land, but that's not any less true in the other countries I'm talking about. The difference is that that cost is more likely to come from national budgets, rather than from fees, which is better in a lot of ways: it's more transparent, and is a progressive rather than regressive tax, is better for tourism, etc. Also note that a lot of the non-fenced land in i.e. Norway isn't public land, it's private land, and it's still accessible to the public due to cultural norms. This may seem weird that there's a social expectation that people will open their private property to public use, but the flip side is that there's little cultural opposition to government helping maintain property. Many hiking shelters, for example, are on private property, but built and maintained by the government.
- justin66 7y ago
  > This isn't the culture in the US, but in some parts of the world, the default assumption is that land is accessible unless it's fenced or otherwise marked. I don't think there is any doubt that these military bases were marked.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    I was responding to the question in the following exchange: > > And if there's no fence, isn't it just public land that it's OK to walk on? > Why would it be?
- ars 7y ago
  That's called https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_to_roam and like you say, it's not the culture in the US. Although land does need to be marked with "No Trespassing" signs in order to gain certain rights under the law.

JeremyBanks 7y ago

Heh. When I was younger, I was lost and distracted (with a paper map, pre-9/11) while driving, and ended up inside CFB Borden (one of the military bases mentioned in the article) without realizing it, by absent-mindedly following traffic. I wonder if someone distracted by Pokemon on their phone could make the same mistake today.

ZanyProgrammer 7y ago
Pre 9/11 was almost 20 years ago. Since then most American military installations have controlled access, meaning a DOD id card or something similar (and vehicle decals). It’s possible people might wander (especially on Army posts) onto ranges out in the sticks, but the actual garrison area will be off limits to the public (esp in the Navy and Air Force). A quick glance at Google Maps for some Canadian military installations shows them without gate guards and open to the public.
how2cflags 7y ago
Can concur with a personal anecdote. Got lost a few years ago on my motorcycle and was utterly confused when I passed the open gate into the grounds not aware that it was even a military base until I saw all the following signage.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

gravitas 7y ago

> ...isn't it just public land that it's OK to walk on? In the USA, no - it's owned by the federal government and has criminal trespass laws surrounding it just like any other owned property ("land parcel"). https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1634-protection-government-property-military-bases https://www.justice.gov/jm/criminal-resource-manual-1634-pro... Criminal trespass does not generally require a fence or sign in most US states (they say you have greater legal protection if you do post a sign or make a fence, but it's not required - IANAL, I just read the internet :)). https://www.bestofsigns.com/blog/no-trespassing-signs-laws-what-a-sign-can-cant-do-in-all-50-states/ https://www.bestofsigns.com/blog/no-trespassing-signs-laws-w... ...and some states such as my own do not embrace the concept of BLM managing public land the way California does as a unique state; in some states most land is generally considered private and legally owned by (someone or something). https://www.wideopenspaces.com/public-land-texas-brief-history/ https://www.wideopenspaces.com/public-land-texas-brief-histo... and has corresponding state-specific criminal trespass laws. Pulling from another comment comparing Norway culture, roughly 2.5x(?) Norways can fit inside Texas. (edit1: fixed HN markup emphasis)

scj 7y ago

In Canada, the concept is more "Crown Land" than "public land". I don't know the answer to your question, but my instincts pose it in the negative sense: Why would there be a right to be on the Queen's land without permission?

peeters 7y ago

People were walking into non-restricted areas of the military bases that were open to the public. None of the incidents discussed in the article were in restricted areas of the bases. That's not to say they didn't fall under the security of the base, so it would be reasonable for the commissionaires tasked with base security to investigate suspicious activity even in non-restricted areas. E.g. Fort Fontenac, one of the bases named, is the site of a historic battle and so has cultural interest open to the public. But it also has official Canadian Forces business conducted on site. Similarly some of the CFBs have museums etc and are generally open to the public.