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> whatever it is you perceive to be “reasonable discourse” Is there anything that you personally would consider to be a step too far? Anything that would make

> whatever it is you perceive to be “reasonable discourse” Is there anything that you personally would consider to be a step too far? Anything that would make you say "this should really, really not be allowed"? Alternatively do you have an example of (subjectively) reasonable speech that was criminalized? > Unreasonable discourse has been instrumental in much of our progress as a society In the sense that society evolved with this as the example of "don't".

AmericanChopper 7y ago
“Hate speech” laws are simply enforcing an orthodox morality. In my life I’ve seen many different groups attempt it. When I was a kid it was conservative Christians lobbying Congress to get Twisted Sister off MTV, and god forbid (literally) you wanted to promote some sort of alternative sexuality... Luckily for us, society rejected the enforced morality then, just as its doing now with all the backlash against this sort of toxic politics.
- close04 7y ago
  I think it's important to be on the same page about what free speech and hate speech mean, the definitions, the limitations, otherwise we'll go nowhere. Hate speech is "public speech that expresses hate or encourages violence towards a person or group based on something such as race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation". The example you gave (with the details provided) doesn't sound like hate speech on either side. And I don't think people were imprisoned for speech promoting or rejecting "alternative sexuality" over the past decades in any free country unless they were also promoting the hate and violence to go with their opinion. Being pro or against something is free speech. Promoting violence against someone is hate speech. Can you help with an example of what you'd say is a step too far or is any speech free (never hate) speech? If a significant group of people would advocate violence against you and you felt your life is in peril every day would you want that (hate) speech to be limited in any way?
  - AmericanChopper 7y ago
    > Hate speech is "public speech that expresses hate or encourages violence towards a person or group based on something such as race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation". Do you believe that this is somehow an objective definition? It’s not. It’s also not the definition that is actually applied by the law. To know whether somebody is expressing hate, you must know the contents of their mind. This is obviously impossible, so the law that is actually applied is based on whether anybody perceived hate. As anybody is free to interpret speech in anyway they please, this simply ends up criminalizing ideas. Probably the most controversial way the law has been applied (actually been applied, in practice, with convictions) is people expressing their own moral objections to homosexuality. Now you could speak the phrase “I morally object to homosexuality”, and you could be expressing any number of non-hateful things. You could be expressing “I have a different view”, “I am promoting a different view”, “I disapprove of a different view”... But you could also read that statement and perceive it to be hateful. The criminality is not determined by the act, but by the audience, and the subjective views of law enforcement. There is no such thing as objective hate speech, outside of the incredibly rare (in terms of enforcement) situations where somebody is explicitly expressing hate. The primary impact of such laws is to enforce a political orthodoxy, and to suppress speech that may challenge it. That not even to mention the fact that suppressing the expression of hateful ideas does nothing to suppress the ideas. It simply emboldens the people who hold those ideas, generates more support for them, and ensures they can’t be challenged by actual dialogue.
    - close04 7y ago
      > Do you believe that this is somehow an objective definition? It’s not. It's better than anything you've provided so far (vagaries completely devoid of concrete examples). That definition makes it pretty clear that encouraging violence towards a group based on the such mentioned criteria constitutes hate speech. It has nothing to do with "the content of their mind". Thought is not punished, action is. And if the action is calling for violence then it's called "hate speech". Whether you actually hate them or not makes no difference to the meaning of the term: call for violence against a group based on the defined criteria. Why are you avoiding providing concrete examples instead of vague "could" and "probably"? If this is abused I'm sure there are thousands of examples of people being unreasonably silenced by calling their speech "hate speech". Are you afraid that there are no examples, or that you'll claim some extremist rant is "reasonable" thus attracting a lot of hate... I mean free speech towards you? Where do you draw the line for what's reasonable and what's not? > (actually been applied, in practice, with convictions) Which is why I'm sure you'll be more than happy to provide example of someone being convicted for saying "I don't support the idea of homosexuality and morally object it [period]", without actually calling for violence. Unless it's unsubstantiated BS. > The criminality is not determined by the act, but by the audience, and the subjective views of law enforcement. Stands to reason the concept of crime should not exist and anyone should be allowed to commit any act under the defense that "it's all subjective man". I'm having a hard time taking the best interpretation of your comments and assuming good faith. P.S. Take the (now flagged) comment below. It's obviously misinformed and wrong in so many ways, and there's a lot of impotence and frustration behind those words, possibly even hate. But the comment itself is not hate speech as it doesn't actually instigate violence. In the private space of HN though the comment was seen as garbage (much like every other comment the sock account has posted) and the ideas rejected still without violating anyone's rights.
- mc32 7y ago
  The Gores’s (PMRC) were also part of that but I’d not consider them religious conservatives. They just thought they were “protecting kids” or whatever.

AmericanChopper 7y ago

“Hate speech” laws are simply enforcing an orthodox morality. In my life I’ve seen many different groups attempt it. When I was a kid it was conservative Christians lobbying Congress to get Twisted Sister off MTV, and god forbid (literally) you wanted to promote some sort of alternative sexuality... Luckily for us, society rejected the enforced morality then, just as its doing now with all the backlash against this sort of toxic politics.

close04 7y ago
I think it's important to be on the same page about what free speech and hate speech mean, the definitions, the limitations, otherwise we'll go nowhere. Hate speech is "public speech that expresses hate or encourages violence towards a person or group based on something such as race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation". The example you gave (with the details provided) doesn't sound like hate speech on either side. And I don't think people were imprisoned for speech promoting or rejecting "alternative sexuality" over the past decades in any free country unless they were also promoting the hate and violence to go with their opinion. Being pro or against something is free speech. Promoting violence against someone is hate speech. Can you help with an example of what you'd say is a step too far or is any speech free (never hate) speech? If a significant group of people would advocate violence against you and you felt your life is in peril every day would you want that (hate) speech to be limited in any way?
- AmericanChopper 7y ago
  > Hate speech is "public speech that expresses hate or encourages violence towards a person or group based on something such as race, religion, sex, or sexual orientation". Do you believe that this is somehow an objective definition? It’s not. It’s also not the definition that is actually applied by the law. To know whether somebody is expressing hate, you must know the contents of their mind. This is obviously impossible, so the law that is actually applied is based on whether anybody perceived hate. As anybody is free to interpret speech in anyway they please, this simply ends up criminalizing ideas. Probably the most controversial way the law has been applied (actually been applied, in practice, with convictions) is people expressing their own moral objections to homosexuality. Now you could speak the phrase “I morally object to homosexuality”, and you could be expressing any number of non-hateful things. You could be expressing “I have a different view”, “I am promoting a different view”, “I disapprove of a different view”... But you could also read that statement and perceive it to be hateful. The criminality is not determined by the act, but by the audience, and the subjective views of law enforcement. There is no such thing as objective hate speech, outside of the incredibly rare (in terms of enforcement) situations where somebody is explicitly expressing hate. The primary impact of such laws is to enforce a political orthodoxy, and to suppress speech that may challenge it. That not even to mention the fact that suppressing the expression of hateful ideas does nothing to suppress the ideas. It simply emboldens the people who hold those ideas, generates more support for them, and ensures they can’t be challenged by actual dialogue.
  - close04 7y ago
    > Do you believe that this is somehow an objective definition? It’s not. It's better than anything you've provided so far (vagaries completely devoid of concrete examples). That definition makes it pretty clear that encouraging violence towards a group based on the such mentioned criteria constitutes hate speech. It has nothing to do with "the content of their mind". Thought is not punished, action is. And if the action is calling for violence then it's called "hate speech". Whether you actually hate them or not makes no difference to the meaning of the term: call for violence against a group based on the defined criteria. Why are you avoiding providing concrete examples instead of vague "could" and "probably"? If this is abused I'm sure there are thousands of examples of people being unreasonably silenced by calling their speech "hate speech". Are you afraid that there are no examples, or that you'll claim some extremist rant is "reasonable" thus attracting a lot of hate... I mean free speech towards you? Where do you draw the line for what's reasonable and what's not? > (actually been applied, in practice, with convictions) Which is why I'm sure you'll be more than happy to provide example of someone being convicted for saying "I don't support the idea of homosexuality and morally object it [period]", without actually calling for violence. Unless it's unsubstantiated BS. > The criminality is not determined by the act, but by the audience, and the subjective views of law enforcement. Stands to reason the concept of crime should not exist and anyone should be allowed to commit any act under the defense that "it's all subjective man". I'm having a hard time taking the best interpretation of your comments and assuming good faith. P.S. Take the (now flagged) comment below. It's obviously misinformed and wrong in so many ways, and there's a lot of impotence and frustration behind those words, possibly even hate. But the comment itself is not hate speech as it doesn't actually instigate violence. In the private space of HN though the comment was seen as garbage (much like every other comment the sock account has posted) and the ideas rejected still without violating anyone's rights.
mc32 7y ago
The Gores’s (PMRC) were also part of that but I’d not consider them religious conservatives. They just thought they were “protecting kids” or whatever.