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> I never said that Britain was justified in any way in the Opium Wars, far from it. I never said you did. My comment specifically debunked your assertions abo

> I never said that Britain was justified in any way in the Opium Wars, far from it. I never said you did. My comment specifically debunked your assertions about "britain's superior economy", etc. > But that's irrelevant to my point anyways. Agreed. > Throwing out 2.6 million pounds of opium (weight) and refusing to talk about it as you denied an embassy ... Oh I see, now you are going to justify britain's behavior. Typical. > 6 British steamships sunk hundreds of Chinese ships Simply not true. There is a reason why almost all of britain's navy were powered by sail even decades after the opium war. It was britain sail powered ships that destroyed chinese ships. > My claim of GDP being a good proxy for military capability was prefaced by specifying it applied to industrialized warfare only. Industrialized warfare didn't really start until ww1, nearly 100 years after the first opium war. > China being a huge exporter of low-value added goods and materials, it was simply impossible for Britain to balance the trade equation. You are mistaking today's china with china from 200 years ago. There is a reason why "fine china" is called "fine china". Chinese goods ( tea, silk, porcelain, etc ) were considered luxury items. > Using industrial weaponry European powers Oh god. The muskets the british and the europeans were using were inferior to the bow and arrow. "European" weaponry didn't really separate itself from the rest until the American civil war when we started using gatling guns, ironclad ships, etc and then down the line oil for trucks, ships, etc. Anyways, this is getting boring as I know you'll continue with your lies about the most basic of history. My goal isn't to convince you, it's to make sure people who read your lies are aware of it. Saying that industrialization is why britain won the opium wars is like saying nuclear weapons is why the US beat britain. Strange how the amazing "industrialized" british couldn't beat the US in the american revolution nor the war of 1812. Here's a hint. British/American industrialization took off AFTER the opium wars because the opium wars provided the capital necessary for british and american industrialization. And if you really want to know how the british "won" the opium wars, it's simply a weak "foreign" central government and perfidious mandarins in southern china. Similar to how france took over vietnam. And how britain took over india. But you won't read about that in the history books. You have to look "behind" the history books. Hope you enjoyed the lesson.

yorwba 7y ago
> It was britain sail powered ships that destroyed chinese ships. They were sail-powered steamboats. It's true that travelling all the way from Britain to China using only steam power was impossible at the time. But the very first British steamboat [1] also had sails. That way, they only had to feed the steam engines when a maneuver required it, e.g. going against the wind. That was evidently enough to win battles. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_(1839) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_(1839)
sudosysgen 7y ago
I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. China was 20% of overseas tax revenue for the British Empire, and the US wasn't selling any notable amount of opium Pointing out that there were more casus belli than what you think doesn't mean I believe any of them justified the wars. But, Qing China objectively saw the British Empire as lower than them, and objectively refused diplomatic channels that might have avoided this mess due to their perceived racial and cultural superiority. As in many things, it wasn't completely one sided. And yes, the flayed and tortured British Officiers for no reason but to see them suffer. You are completely clueless as to naval military technology of the time. Steamships did in fact have sails. They only used their steam engines in war situations. The steamships used in the Opium Wars were literally iron ships. The were superior in every single way to Chinese ships, which literally could not counter them at all. It was total naval domination due to technology, nothing else. Yes, the fact that the Chinese central government had terrible intel due to the nature of their terrible feudal bureaucracy played a role. However, the British were able to beat down fleets and armies far far far bigger than their own, repeatedly, in enemy territory. Plainly, they won because they had iron ships with the steam engine. That is the product of industrialization. Your perceived notion of the industrial revolution is wrong, that what you say is the start of the industrial revolution is actually after the end of the industrial revolution. Also, tea, porcelain and fine china are either raw resources, in the case of tea, or artisan work. They aren't industrial goods at all, and are the hallmark of a poor economy. China in the last 50 years is absolutely not that. While a lot of their goods are of lower quality, they are industrially produced goods, not artisan goods. That's because the CCP, even since Mao, for all their faults, recognized the mistakes of the Qing and began to mass industrialize.

yorwba 7y ago

> It was britain sail powered ships that destroyed chinese ships. They were sail-powered steamboats. It's true that travelling all the way from Britain to China using only steam power was impossible at the time. But the very first British steamboat [1] also had sails. That way, they only had to feed the steam engines when a maneuver required it, e.g. going against the wind. That was evidently enough to win battles. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_(1839) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nemesis_(1839)

sudosysgen 7y ago

I'm sorry but this is ridiculous. China was 20% of overseas tax revenue for the British Empire, and the US wasn't selling any notable amount of opium Pointing out that there were more casus belli than what you think doesn't mean I believe any of them justified the wars. But, Qing China objectively saw the British Empire as lower than them, and objectively refused diplomatic channels that might have avoided this mess due to their perceived racial and cultural superiority. As in many things, it wasn't completely one sided. And yes, the flayed and tortured British Officiers for no reason but to see them suffer. You are completely clueless as to naval military technology of the time. Steamships did in fact have sails. They only used their steam engines in war situations. The steamships used in the Opium Wars were literally iron ships. The were superior in every single way to Chinese ships, which literally could not counter them at all. It was total naval domination due to technology, nothing else. Yes, the fact that the Chinese central government had terrible intel due to the nature of their terrible feudal bureaucracy played a role. However, the British were able to beat down fleets and armies far far far bigger than their own, repeatedly, in enemy territory. Plainly, they won because they had iron ships with the steam engine. That is the product of industrialization. Your perceived notion of the industrial revolution is wrong, that what you say is the start of the industrial revolution is actually after the end of the industrial revolution. Also, tea, porcelain and fine china are either raw resources, in the case of tea, or artisan work. They aren't industrial goods at all, and are the hallmark of a poor economy. China in the last 50 years is absolutely not that. While a lot of their goods are of lower quality, they are industrially produced goods, not artisan goods. That's because the CCP, even since Mao, for all their faults, recognized the mistakes of the Qing and began to mass industrialize.