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I just asked the same thing because I've had that experience too. I'm curious: are you usually working on things that require close collaboration between team m

I just asked the same thing because I've had that experience too. I'm curious: are you usually working on things that require close collaboration between team members? My hunch is that standups are pretty useless on teams where each developer is working on an independent change where there isn't much opportunity to get blocked by teammates aside from waiting for code reviews and the like. That's most of the teams I've worked on, and the standups inevitably turn into a verbal form of, "Hey manager, here's my status report for the day even though you already know all this because I've already said it in Slack," because you have nothing to ask of the other people on the team but you're required to say something every day.

ryanbrunner 7y ago
Where I've seen standups work effectively is when an engineer has a bit of context on a problem that someone is dealing with, or an insight that might unblock someone. I've had many times I've mentioned in an (async, written in slack) standup status update, and someone's chimed in with something like "Oh, I've dealt with that before - let's pair for 10 minutes so I can walk you through some gotchas". Another plus for me personally is that it has a focusing effect on myself as a developer - if I say I'm going to get something done in standup, I'm going to force myself to focus on that task, and not get distracted by something else unless it's really important. I can see how that's a totally personal thing though - I need to have some sort of external "deadline", even if it's self-imposed and soft, to keep me focused. All of the above can be solved with async updates in Slack though, and that's probably actually a better medium. Having folks get in the same room seems a little pointless to me, especially when you have remote folks and timezones are an issue.
- Sean1708 7y ago
  The problem I've had with async updates is that they often get ignored because everyone that could help is busy at the time, so you still need the actual standup to just remind them about it. How do you get around this?
  - ryanbrunner 7y ago
    I don't have a great solution for that, really, other than ensuring that updates are highly visible in a room where people are likely to read them and have a good culture around helping folks. I've been in environments like the one you describe, and I think at the end of the day it's more of a cultural issue than something that can be solved using a tool.
    - latchkey 7y ago
      this ^^^^^^^^^^^
  - koreth1 7y ago
    I get around it by pinging people directly (usually I reply to my question as a thread in Slack and @-mention them, so the main channel doesn't get cluttered with my reminder) if a couple hours go by without a response. Still usually faster than waiting until the next day to ask at standup.
JohnBooty 7y ago
My hunch is that standups are pretty useless on teams where each developer is working on an independent change where there isn't much opportunity to get blocked by teammates aside from waiting for code reviews and the like Personal anecdote, but I like to know what my teammates are working on even if we're not collaborating directly. I could (and do) read their commits and PRs, and standups are not a replacement for that, but I think you can usually get a better idea just by chatting for a few minutes each day. I view the cost of a daily standup as very small (they should be only a few minutes long!) so while some would call the benefits modest, I think the "time spent vs. value obtained" ratio is still very good.
- koreth1 7y ago
  For me the cost is much less about, "It's just a few minutes long" and much more about, "Having to get up from my desk and talk to people about their projects kills my flow state." It's a short meeting but it's still a meeting and has the same effect on focused thinking as a longer meeting. Losing focus is totally fine if there's benefit to it, but for standups where I neither learn nor teach anything new, it's all cost and no benefit. I too like knowing what my teammates are working on, but I already get that from the team's Slack channel where people talk about what they're doing as they do it.
  - JohnBooty 7y ago
    I agree about the frustration of having my flow disrupted, but my like of daily standups is related to my experience that they create an overall reduction in interruptions. Of course, that's my experience. Others may have had different experiences and I respect that. If you formerly had 0 interruptions per day and now you have 1 interruption per day, that would be frustrating. I would also like to work where you work!
- alasdair_ 7y ago
  >I view the cost of a daily standup as very small (they should be only a few minutes long!) so while some would call the benefits modest, I think the "time spent vs. value obtained" ratio is still very good. My problem with a morning standup is that it completely destroys my productivity if I come in early and really get cracking on a problem, then have to stop and task-switch. I'd much rather make it optionally asynchronous.

ryanbrunner 7y ago

Where I've seen standups work effectively is when an engineer has a bit of context on a problem that someone is dealing with, or an insight that might unblock someone. I've had many times I've mentioned in an (async, written in slack) standup status update, and someone's chimed in with something like "Oh, I've dealt with that before - let's pair for 10 minutes so I can walk you through some gotchas". Another plus for me personally is that it has a focusing effect on myself as a developer - if I say I'm going to get something done in standup, I'm going to force myself to focus on that task, and not get distracted by something else unless it's really important. I can see how that's a totally personal thing though - I need to have some sort of external "deadline", even if it's self-imposed and soft, to keep me focused. All of the above can be solved with async updates in Slack though, and that's probably actually a better medium. Having folks get in the same room seems a little pointless to me, especially when you have remote folks and timezones are an issue.

Sean1708 7y ago
The problem I've had with async updates is that they often get ignored because everyone that could help is busy at the time, so you still need the actual standup to just remind them about it. How do you get around this?
- ryanbrunner 7y ago
  I don't have a great solution for that, really, other than ensuring that updates are highly visible in a room where people are likely to read them and have a good culture around helping folks. I've been in environments like the one you describe, and I think at the end of the day it's more of a cultural issue than something that can be solved using a tool.
  - latchkey 7y ago
    this ^^^^^^^^^^^
- koreth1 7y ago
  I get around it by pinging people directly (usually I reply to my question as a thread in Slack and @-mention them, so the main channel doesn't get cluttered with my reminder) if a couple hours go by without a response. Still usually faster than waiting until the next day to ask at standup.

JohnBooty 7y ago

My hunch is that standups are pretty useless on teams where each developer is working on an independent change where there isn't much opportunity to get blocked by teammates aside from waiting for code reviews and the like Personal anecdote, but I like to know what my teammates are working on even if we're not collaborating directly. I could (and do) read their commits and PRs, and standups are not a replacement for that, but I think you can usually get a better idea just by chatting for a few minutes each day. I view the cost of a daily standup as very small (they should be only a few minutes long!) so while some would call the benefits modest, I think the "time spent vs. value obtained" ratio is still very good.

koreth1 7y ago
For me the cost is much less about, "It's just a few minutes long" and much more about, "Having to get up from my desk and talk to people about their projects kills my flow state." It's a short meeting but it's still a meeting and has the same effect on focused thinking as a longer meeting. Losing focus is totally fine if there's benefit to it, but for standups where I neither learn nor teach anything new, it's all cost and no benefit. I too like knowing what my teammates are working on, but I already get that from the team's Slack channel where people talk about what they're doing as they do it.
- JohnBooty 7y ago
  I agree about the frustration of having my flow disrupted, but my like of daily standups is related to my experience that they create an overall reduction in interruptions. Of course, that's my experience. Others may have had different experiences and I respect that. If you formerly had 0 interruptions per day and now you have 1 interruption per day, that would be frustrating. I would also like to work where you work!
alasdair_ 7y ago
>I view the cost of a daily standup as very small (they should be only a few minutes long!) so while some would call the benefits modest, I think the "time spent vs. value obtained" ratio is still very good. My problem with a morning standup is that it completely destroys my productivity if I come in early and really get cracking on a problem, then have to stop and task-switch. I'd much rather make it optionally asynchronous.