4 ms·

>What is new is that even democratic countries are controlling free speech via speech laws or often the private companies engaging in evaluating what's permissi

by pell 7y ago

>What is new is that even democratic countries are controlling free speech via speech laws or often the private companies engaging in evaluating what's permissible speech and not above and beyond what laws require. So, are you referring to India's last steps to shut down the internet in multiple regions where dissent forms? Or is this about caps on free speech in certain countries? I feel like these things are not on the same spectrum. That said, the power of Google, Facebook and somewhat less so Twitter is scary.

freeflight 7y ago
> I feel like these things are not on the same spectrum. As somebody living in a country with pretty heavy "caps on free speech", Germany, it's very much both on the same spectrum [0]. Because the reasons for those "caps" are very much the same reasons why India shut down the large scale: To reign in dissidence and control the Overton window. The South Korean National Security Act [1] is another, rather blatant, example for this kind of "thought legislation" that also doesn't shy away from straight-up banning and censoring media. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/20/extinction-rebellion-founders-holocaust-remarks-spark-fury https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/20/extincti... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_(South_Korea) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_(South_K...
- pell 7y ago
  I am not sure what your example from Germany is supposed to show. The author was not persecuted, his publisher simply stopped selling his book. This seems vastly different to India turning off an entire communication channel.
  - freeflight 7y ago
    > The author was not persecuted, his publisher simply stopped selling his book. If you ignore how that whole episode completely side-tracked from the topic the author was actually interviewed on, climate-catastrophe, and how the German government has been rather opposed to that whole movement, then the end result was very favorable for the German government which originally cried wolf over it. And all it had to do was accuse him of something he actually didn't do, based on an interview that wasn't even publicly published at that point. Or we can just act like him getting depublished for talking sense is a completely rational and normal thing. As such I consider it a rather apt example of how these kinds of "speech caps" can be abused to influence the Overton window. And while it might not be as blunt as just cutting off information access wholesale, it's much more devious in its actual manifestation due to the large-scale acceptance of it, while denying that it leads to any self-censorship.
    - pell 7y ago
      I have a hard time agreeing with your assessment here. Roger Hallam called the holocaust "just another fuckery in human history" in the context of past atrocities that left millions of people dead. Germany's foreign minister Heiko Maas criticized this statement which is a given as the Holocaust is viewed as an extraordinary and not at all common event in Germany (and by many historians globally too). Also it's a relatively recent event. That said, it's not Germany's government that pushed for Hallam to not be able to publish his book. If you live in Germany, you do of course know that politicians of the AfD party have said similar things without any persecution whatsoever. There are former high ranking neo nazis who work in high offices in this party. After the elections in Brandenburg, Andreas Kalbitz was interviewed on multiple TV stations despite his past as a neo nazi. AfD politicians are regularly invited to political talk shows, newspapers publish anything they say or tweet, Thilo Sarrazin published teaser chapters of his book in leading newspapers across the whole political spectrum. Germany's left-center newspaper Die Zeit asked whether rescuing refugees at sea is worth it not too long ago. I do not see where anyone in Germany is being "depublished" for saying things that go against your perceived current. The Ullstein publishing house declined to sell the book after his comments. Other publishing houses might have decided differently. There is no evidence of the government pushing this anywhere from what I can see. How this is in any way more "devious" than what the Indian government is currently doing in Kashmir and to protesters is absolutely incomprehensible to me. And I do take the latest developments in the WDR choir scandal as much into account as I do Richard Gutjahr's open letter about the BR and extreme right-wing mob attacks which was published yesterday. These things are not on the same spectrum at all.
      - freeflight 7y ago
        > Roger Hallam called the holocaust "just another fuckery in human history" Prefacing it with "almost.." but apparently everybody just glosses over that word because that wouldn't be conducive to the narrative of "Roger Hallam is a secret neo-Nazi who relativizes the Holocaust, everybody should shun him and his views!". You drawing the AfD into this, and how they can supposedly openly deny the Holocaust without consequences, is not just dishonest, as it completely embezzles the resulting controversy, it also fits neatly into the "Hallam is like the AfD" narrative. While completely embezzling that a large part of what feeds the AfD is a counter-culture movement that's getting tired of constantly getting slapped with the "Nazikeule". That's not to say that this is always undeserved, often enough it is deserved, but quite regularly it's used to shape the discourse because anybody who talks about the Holocaust without going "Yes, that was the most horrible thing in human history ever, and will forever remain the most horrible thing" is treading on very dangerous ground, as Roger Hallam had to find out. > There is no evidence of the government pushing this anywhere from what I can see. So the foreign minister of Germany is not part of the government? He didn't use his public position to help start, and legitimize, this witchhunt? That whole episode didn't make Roger Hallam a Persona non grata among the German branch of the ER?
- the_why_of_y 7y ago
  > [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/20/extincti https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/20/extincti So some political activist used his free speech right to make some inconsiderate comments about historic events, and then numerous other public figures used their own free speech rights to point out that they disagree with those comments, and his publisher used their right of freedom of contract to cancel his book publishing deal. Where exactly is the "caps on free speech" here? According to the article no legal or police action was taken against him? Should the people who disagreed with his comment have been prevented from criticizing him in public? Should book publishers be required to publish anything from anyone?

by pell 7y ago

freeflight 7y ago

> I feel like these things are not on the same spectrum. As somebody living in a country with pretty heavy "caps on free speech", Germany, it's very much both on the same spectrum [0]. Because the reasons for those "caps" are very much the same reasons why India shut down the large scale: To reign in dissidence and control the Overton window. The South Korean National Security Act [1] is another, rather blatant, example for this kind of "thought legislation" that also doesn't shy away from straight-up banning and censoring media. [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/20/extinction-rebellion-founders-holocaust-remarks-spark-fury https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/20/extincti... [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_(South_Korea) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Security_Act_(South_K...

pell 7y ago
I am not sure what your example from Germany is supposed to show. The author was not persecuted, his publisher simply stopped selling his book. This seems vastly different to India turning off an entire communication channel.
- freeflight 7y ago
  > The author was not persecuted, his publisher simply stopped selling his book. If you ignore how that whole episode completely side-tracked from the topic the author was actually interviewed on, climate-catastrophe, and how the German government has been rather opposed to that whole movement, then the end result was very favorable for the German government which originally cried wolf over it. And all it had to do was accuse him of something he actually didn't do, based on an interview that wasn't even publicly published at that point. Or we can just act like him getting depublished for talking sense is a completely rational and normal thing. As such I consider it a rather apt example of how these kinds of "speech caps" can be abused to influence the Overton window. And while it might not be as blunt as just cutting off information access wholesale, it's much more devious in its actual manifestation due to the large-scale acceptance of it, while denying that it leads to any self-censorship.
  - pell 7y ago
    I have a hard time agreeing with your assessment here. Roger Hallam called the holocaust "just another fuckery in human history" in the context of past atrocities that left millions of people dead. Germany's foreign minister Heiko Maas criticized this statement which is a given as the Holocaust is viewed as an extraordinary and not at all common event in Germany (and by many historians globally too). Also it's a relatively recent event. That said, it's not Germany's government that pushed for Hallam to not be able to publish his book. If you live in Germany, you do of course know that politicians of the AfD party have said similar things without any persecution whatsoever. There are former high ranking neo nazis who work in high offices in this party. After the elections in Brandenburg, Andreas Kalbitz was interviewed on multiple TV stations despite his past as a neo nazi. AfD politicians are regularly invited to political talk shows, newspapers publish anything they say or tweet, Thilo Sarrazin published teaser chapters of his book in leading newspapers across the whole political spectrum. Germany's left-center newspaper Die Zeit asked whether rescuing refugees at sea is worth it not too long ago. I do not see where anyone in Germany is being "depublished" for saying things that go against your perceived current. The Ullstein publishing house declined to sell the book after his comments. Other publishing houses might have decided differently. There is no evidence of the government pushing this anywhere from what I can see. How this is in any way more "devious" than what the Indian government is currently doing in Kashmir and to protesters is absolutely incomprehensible to me. And I do take the latest developments in the WDR choir scandal as much into account as I do Richard Gutjahr's open letter about the BR and extreme right-wing mob attacks which was published yesterday. These things are not on the same spectrum at all.
    - freeflight 7y ago
      > Roger Hallam called the holocaust "just another fuckery in human history" Prefacing it with "almost.." but apparently everybody just glosses over that word because that wouldn't be conducive to the narrative of "Roger Hallam is a secret neo-Nazi who relativizes the Holocaust, everybody should shun him and his views!". You drawing the AfD into this, and how they can supposedly openly deny the Holocaust without consequences, is not just dishonest, as it completely embezzles the resulting controversy, it also fits neatly into the "Hallam is like the AfD" narrative. While completely embezzling that a large part of what feeds the AfD is a counter-culture movement that's getting tired of constantly getting slapped with the "Nazikeule". That's not to say that this is always undeserved, often enough it is deserved, but quite regularly it's used to shape the discourse because anybody who talks about the Holocaust without going "Yes, that was the most horrible thing in human history ever, and will forever remain the most horrible thing" is treading on very dangerous ground, as Roger Hallam had to find out. > There is no evidence of the government pushing this anywhere from what I can see. So the foreign minister of Germany is not part of the government? He didn't use his public position to help start, and legitimize, this witchhunt? That whole episode didn't make Roger Hallam a Persona non grata among the German branch of the ER?
the_why_of_y 7y ago
> [0] https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/20/extincti https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2019/nov/20/extincti So some political activist used his free speech right to make some inconsiderate comments about historic events, and then numerous other public figures used their own free speech rights to point out that they disagree with those comments, and his publisher used their right of freedom of contract to cancel his book publishing deal. Where exactly is the "caps on free speech" here? According to the article no legal or police action was taken against him? Should the people who disagreed with his comment have been prevented from criticizing him in public? Should book publishers be required to publish anything from anyone?