5 ms·

I had an interesting conversation with a friend about this the other day: Friend: Dude, check out this guys code, I haven't met him yet, but like him already,

by jarin 16y ago

I had an interesting conversation with a friend about this the other day: Friend: Dude, check out this guys code, I haven't met him yet, but like him already, identified the problem as NP complete Friend: (code link) Me: yeah that looks good Friend: too bad, I don't like hiring people older than me Me: too bad that's illegal Friend: yeah Friend: I definitely do and have, I just prefer younger people in general, they're less likely to be stuck in their ways or not take direction Friend: Or think, I know better than this guy Me: but he might know better than you Me: well meet the guy first Friend: he's coming in today Friend: I am open to that, I like to hire people smarter than me, as long as they know that I make the decisions and sometimes I will not agree

asmithmd1 16y ago
I would guess your friend has worked his way up in a large bureaucracy. From his quote: "as long as they know that I make the decisions" he is more concerned with people knowing he is in charge than in reaching the best solution.
- endtime 16y ago
  I wouldn't guess that. My company is four people, and it's my first full time job. When I hired a contractor for a few weeks, who I'd guess is in his mid 30's (I'm 24), he couldn't handle it when I made a decision he didn't agree with. Totally destroyed the relationship.
  - asmithmd1 16y ago
    Maybe you could have communicated why you made the decision you did and not had the relationship go south. Or you could have said something like, "You obviously feel strongly about this, I don't have time to discuss it right now but lets make some time before or after work in the next couple of days." People have different motivations; often they just want to be heard but some times they need to be "right." Sometimes you can make a meaningless concession so that they are "right" and have them full speed on your side again instead of fighting you.
    - endtime 16y ago
      I did that, several times, and I wasn't blunt or aggressive (which made one of us) - I'm not totally socially inept. I "lost" more of those arguments than I won. I genuinely think it would have been okay if I weren't fresh out of grad school - the guy in question was often condescending when trying to make a point. Maybe he's an exception, I don't know, but I definitely think the age difference made things worse.
      - jarin 16y ago
        Please don't take offense to this, but if you're fresh out of grad school you probably don't know as much as you think you do. Not to say that automatically makes you wrong, but you should definitely be more prepared to justify your decisions, even to people who work under you.
        endtime 16y ago
        No offense taken. I think I recognize my own limits (Stanford's a good place to learn them), but I also know our customer base better than a contractor, and at the end of the day I'm the one who has to maintain the code. There were certainly situations where I went with what the contractor said rather than what I preferred because he made reasonable points (e.g. "this would add a dependency to the project") or just general software engineering stuff where I deferred to his experience. I also think I was more than fair about discussing and justifying my decisions when I did have to make the one he didn't like, but it didn't seem to mollify him.
      - asmithmd1 16y ago
        I just remembered another trick you can use when someone is arguing one tack; get them to commit to the ultimate deliverable. i.e. "So you say we should do XYZ using PDQ, so will you be able to demo it for the customer next Tuesday?" Now to be right they have to get it done on time, and if they waffle you can assert your decision.
- dagw 16y ago
  I didn't get that feeling at all. Very few problems have a "best" solution. Generally they have a whole myriad of good solutions with various pros and cons, and as a boss you sometimes take a strategic decision say "we're going with solution X" and have people get to work rather than getting bogged down in a two week argument. I mean I don't always agree with every decision my boss makes but at the end of the day I respect the fact that he knows more about the big picture and our customers than I do and that he signs my paychecks.
endtime 16y ago
I understand where your friend's coming from. I've had bad experiences hiring contractors older than me - any disagreement resulted in the attitude (whether made explicit or not) that I obviously don't know what I'm talking about because I'm 24.
- jarin 16y ago
  This is why, aside from programming ability, I judge programmers not by their age but by the conversations we have over beers. And yes, I do have a slight bias against programmers who don't drink (unless they're recovering alcoholics or can't produce alcohol dehydrogenase or something like that).
  - endtime 16y ago
    I don't drink - I'm not draconian about it, but I won't have a beer unless not doing so would be antisocial, and I don't enjoy it. I'd tell you it doesn't make a difference, but maybe I'm just too terrible programmer to realize how terrible I am...
spanktheuser 16y ago
That's just depressing. I came here to post that this was probably a non-existent problem – that the middle-aged IT workers not finding work just need to modernize their skills a bit and all would be fine. Your post opened my eyes, I guess. That said, not everyone is like this. My company prefers experienced developers, so long as they're enthusiastic and have experience with relevant tech. We're a start-up, and find that the "old guys" are easily able to hang with the young guns in terms of energy and productivity.
j_baker 16y ago
For the record, this is only illegal in the US if the applicant is over 40.
- rdl 16y ago
  There are also state laws to consider in the US.

by jarin 16y ago

asmithmd1 16y ago

I would guess your friend has worked his way up in a large bureaucracy. From his quote: "as long as they know that I make the decisions" he is more concerned with people knowing he is in charge than in reaching the best solution.

endtime 16y ago
I wouldn't guess that. My company is four people, and it's my first full time job. When I hired a contractor for a few weeks, who I'd guess is in his mid 30's (I'm 24), he couldn't handle it when I made a decision he didn't agree with. Totally destroyed the relationship.
- asmithmd1 16y ago
  Maybe you could have communicated why you made the decision you did and not had the relationship go south. Or you could have said something like, "You obviously feel strongly about this, I don't have time to discuss it right now but lets make some time before or after work in the next couple of days." People have different motivations; often they just want to be heard but some times they need to be "right." Sometimes you can make a meaningless concession so that they are "right" and have them full speed on your side again instead of fighting you.
  - endtime 16y ago
    I did that, several times, and I wasn't blunt or aggressive (which made one of us) - I'm not totally socially inept. I "lost" more of those arguments than I won. I genuinely think it would have been okay if I weren't fresh out of grad school - the guy in question was often condescending when trying to make a point. Maybe he's an exception, I don't know, but I definitely think the age difference made things worse.
    - jarin 16y ago
      Please don't take offense to this, but if you're fresh out of grad school you probably don't know as much as you think you do. Not to say that automatically makes you wrong, but you should definitely be more prepared to justify your decisions, even to people who work under you.
      - endtime 16y ago
        No offense taken. I think I recognize my own limits (Stanford's a good place to learn them), but I also know our customer base better than a contractor, and at the end of the day I'm the one who has to maintain the code. There were certainly situations where I went with what the contractor said rather than what I preferred because he made reasonable points (e.g. "this would add a dependency to the project") or just general software engineering stuff where I deferred to his experience. I also think I was more than fair about discussing and justifying my decisions when I did have to make the one he didn't like, but it didn't seem to mollify him.
    - asmithmd1 16y ago
      I just remembered another trick you can use when someone is arguing one tack; get them to commit to the ultimate deliverable. i.e. "So you say we should do XYZ using PDQ, so will you be able to demo it for the customer next Tuesday?" Now to be right they have to get it done on time, and if they waffle you can assert your decision.
dagw 16y ago
I didn't get that feeling at all. Very few problems have a "best" solution. Generally they have a whole myriad of good solutions with various pros and cons, and as a boss you sometimes take a strategic decision say "we're going with solution X" and have people get to work rather than getting bogged down in a two week argument. I mean I don't always agree with every decision my boss makes but at the end of the day I respect the fact that he knows more about the big picture and our customers than I do and that he signs my paychecks.

endtime 16y ago

I understand where your friend's coming from. I've had bad experiences hiring contractors older than me - any disagreement resulted in the attitude (whether made explicit or not) that I obviously don't know what I'm talking about because I'm 24.

jarin 16y ago
This is why, aside from programming ability, I judge programmers not by their age but by the conversations we have over beers. And yes, I do have a slight bias against programmers who don't drink (unless they're recovering alcoholics or can't produce alcohol dehydrogenase or something like that).
- endtime 16y ago
  I don't drink - I'm not draconian about it, but I won't have a beer unless not doing so would be antisocial, and I don't enjoy it. I'd tell you it doesn't make a difference, but maybe I'm just too terrible programmer to realize how terrible I am...

spanktheuser 16y ago

That's just depressing. I came here to post that this was probably a non-existent problem – that the middle-aged IT workers not finding work just need to modernize their skills a bit and all would be fine. Your post opened my eyes, I guess. That said, not everyone is like this. My company prefers experienced developers, so long as they're enthusiastic and have experience with relevant tech. We're a start-up, and find that the "old guys" are easily able to hang with the young guns in terms of energy and productivity.

j_baker 16y ago

For the record, this is only illegal in the US if the applicant is over 40.

rdl 16y ago
There are also state laws to consider in the US.