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> Teachers would retain the ability, under the proposed law, to suspend students from their classroom for disruptive behavior That clears it up. At first readi

by rdtsc 7y ago

> Teachers would retain the ability, under the proposed law, to suspend students from their classroom for disruptive behavior That clears it up. At first reading it seems that teachers couldn't suspend a student if they are being disruptive, but that's not the case. Thinking about some more I am not sure if this changes the equation much as I can imagine the teacher can reinterpret the "they disobeyed me" into a "they were being disruptive" situation in most cases. Having chaperoned a few field trips for my kids' school and having dealt with students who are disruptive, I can sympathize with teachers trying to get a handle on one or two kids who just refuse to listen. It can ruin the environment for the rest of the class and take away precious learning time. Having said that I don't really have a solution. Not sure if assigning extra work or isolating them to a separate class would work. > Black students made up 5.6% of California school enrollments in the last school year, but got hit with 15.6% of all 'willful defiance' suspensions Interesting. Is it inherent systemic racism coming from teachers? Is that worth investigating more rather than just making the statistic go away by banning those types of suspensions. Something about that doesn't seem right.

danans 7y ago
> Interesting. Is it inherent systemic racism coming from teachers? More likely it is the the systemic racism of society imposing struggles on the students' communities, which then manifests in the students' disobedient classroom behavior. The teachers, meanwhile are operating in the same frame of systemic racism and associated socioeconomic conditions as any of us are. We all - black people included - are conditioned by society's default systemic racism towards black youths. But public school teachers serving struggling black communities are made to confront this more directly in the course of their work. We expect public school to function as social work facilities, treating the social dysfunctions our society creates in young people while also preparing them intellectually to be contributing members of society, but we don't fund them enough to carry out that work. Given this, public schools, which must by law serve a higher ratio of troubled youth than schools that can choose which students they admit, should be able to employ a higher ratio of behavioral health specialists to do this. Better yet, those issues should be treated, or prevented, before the children arrive at school, but that would require a conversation about the distribution of wealth, security, and community stability that we as a society don't seem to be ready to have yet.
bruceb 7y ago
How does this show "systemic racism coming from teachers?" This subtle (or not so subtle) attack on teachers is sad. This stat alone doesn't tell us anything, let alone who to blame.
- rdtsc 7y ago
  > How does this show "systemic racism coming from teachers?" This subtle (or not so subtle) attack on teachers is sad. Someone pointed out that black students were disproportionately affected by these suspensions. Suspensions are handed out by the teachers. So what is your explanation then? Racism can be manifested both institutionally a well as personally, unconsciously even. Are you implying someone or something else is telling the teacher to assign these punishments? > This stat alone doesn't tell us anything, let alone who to blame. So why bother publish it if it doesn't tell us anything? They seem to have changed the rules for the whole state of California based on such statistics. Do you think they are inaccurately gathered?
  - bruceb 7y ago
    It shows this group of students is suspended at a higher rate than other, not whether that is justified or not. There maybe different reasons for that. Maybe some kids are more disruptive than others. This could be for a myriad of reasons, that have nothing to do with the teacher. Racism exists but blaming everything on racism, especially on teachers, who on average are probably more social aware than the avg person doesnt solve any problems, and might actually make them worse.
ineedasername 7y ago
It could be a correlation between socioeconomic demographics rather than race. Regardless though, suspensions always seemed counter productive to me: "You were misbehaving so as a punishment we won't let you learn anything for a few days." Instead, put the disruptive into self-study rooms where they have to do school work and the only talking allowed is with an instructor assigned to assist students with the work. Or any other even vaguely related learning activity. But "you're not allowed to learn" is just ridiculous.
- rdtsc 7y ago
  > But "you're not allowed to learn" is just ridiculous. Hmm, I might have missed something. Sorry about that. Can you point out where I said the "you're not allowed to learn". I searched my comment for that phrase and couldn't find it there.

by rdtsc 7y ago

danans 7y ago

> Interesting. Is it inherent systemic racism coming from teachers? More likely it is the the systemic racism of society imposing struggles on the students' communities, which then manifests in the students' disobedient classroom behavior. The teachers, meanwhile are operating in the same frame of systemic racism and associated socioeconomic conditions as any of us are. We all - black people included - are conditioned by society's default systemic racism towards black youths. But public school teachers serving struggling black communities are made to confront this more directly in the course of their work. We expect public school to function as social work facilities, treating the social dysfunctions our society creates in young people while also preparing them intellectually to be contributing members of society, but we don't fund them enough to carry out that work. Given this, public schools, which must by law serve a higher ratio of troubled youth than schools that can choose which students they admit, should be able to employ a higher ratio of behavioral health specialists to do this. Better yet, those issues should be treated, or prevented, before the children arrive at school, but that would require a conversation about the distribution of wealth, security, and community stability that we as a society don't seem to be ready to have yet.

bruceb 7y ago

How does this show "systemic racism coming from teachers?" This subtle (or not so subtle) attack on teachers is sad. This stat alone doesn't tell us anything, let alone who to blame.

rdtsc 7y ago
> How does this show "systemic racism coming from teachers?" This subtle (or not so subtle) attack on teachers is sad. Someone pointed out that black students were disproportionately affected by these suspensions. Suspensions are handed out by the teachers. So what is your explanation then? Racism can be manifested both institutionally a well as personally, unconsciously even. Are you implying someone or something else is telling the teacher to assign these punishments? > This stat alone doesn't tell us anything, let alone who to blame. So why bother publish it if it doesn't tell us anything? They seem to have changed the rules for the whole state of California based on such statistics. Do you think they are inaccurately gathered?
- bruceb 7y ago
  It shows this group of students is suspended at a higher rate than other, not whether that is justified or not. There maybe different reasons for that. Maybe some kids are more disruptive than others. This could be for a myriad of reasons, that have nothing to do with the teacher. Racism exists but blaming everything on racism, especially on teachers, who on average are probably more social aware than the avg person doesnt solve any problems, and might actually make them worse.

ineedasername 7y ago

It could be a correlation between socioeconomic demographics rather than race. Regardless though, suspensions always seemed counter productive to me: "You were misbehaving so as a punishment we won't let you learn anything for a few days." Instead, put the disruptive into self-study rooms where they have to do school work and the only talking allowed is with an instructor assigned to assist students with the work. Or any other even vaguely related learning activity. But "you're not allowed to learn" is just ridiculous.

rdtsc 7y ago
> But "you're not allowed to learn" is just ridiculous. Hmm, I might have missed something. Sorry about that. Can you point out where I said the "you're not allowed to learn". I searched my comment for that phrase and couldn't find it there.