4 ms·

>Obviously, it was a genuine human error i'm not sure what about that is obvious. And even if we accept that this was human error, when the form you're signin

>Obviously, it was a genuine human error i'm not sure what about that is obvious. And even if we accept that this was human error, when the form you're signing says in big print multiple times that you can go to jail for filling it out wrong, maybe don't just skip that section? I understand that this is a hard situation for this guy, but simplifying this as "one checkmark" is pretty silly. His argument that he didn't check that box is beside the point - he signed his name to an inaccurate form, which still puts him in the situation of misrepresenting his identity. The guy wasn't some refugee fleeing a country under exceptional circumstances, he was a well-off professional moving for work. there's no excuse for not hiring an immigration lawyer to make sure all the paperwork is absolutely perfect in addition to taking a huge amount of care and double checking everything.

philipkiely 7y ago
Please consider the situation with empathy. A real person, who by all appearances would make a good citizen, is unable to live in the country of his choice because of a single clerical error. Perfection is too high a bar to hold anyone to.
- notatoad 7y ago
  being able to live in your country of choice is a privilege denied to a huge number of people who have never made a clerical error that looks identical to lying about their citizenship. I understand this guy's problem, and i'm sad for him. but looking at it from the perspective of everybody else who's ever gone through the immigration process, or the people working on the immigration process, i can also understand why this situation couldn't really have any other end result.
  - redis_mlc 7y ago
    Please read my comment above and stop being an argumentative pedant. Form I-9 is primarily an employment document, not an immigration document.
    - rumanator 7y ago
      > Form I-9 is primarily an employment document The form is a requirement to be able to immigrate to the US. No form, no imigration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_I-9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_I-9
      - sveiss 7y ago
        You can immigrate to the US without ever filling out an I-9, if you never work as an employee while in the US. On the other hand, a US citizen who never leaves the country might fill out dozens over the course of a career, depending on how often they switch jobs.
  - jariel 7y ago
    "i can also understand why this situation couldn't really have any other end result" No, this is not true. Mistakes happen all the time, everywhere. This guy had no motivation to lie on a simple form. If you want to see how this works, check with your bank. Mistakes are made all the time processing money, and usually things can be fixed.
  - LorenPechtel 7y ago
    This has nothing to do with the immigration process. My wife is an immigrant, all our headaches with those idiots didn't involve a single I-9 form.
- rumanator 7y ago
  > is unable to live in the country of his choice That's not how things work. You don't have a right to pick and choose which countries you enter, let alone live. Emigrating is a privilege that's granted by the host nation. If a nation asks a prospective imigrant to not commit fraud or misrepresent himself while applying for a privilege, no one should be surprised if they reject your application when you are caught providing false information.
  - netsharc 7y ago
    Since he presumably meets the qualifications for many countries (he's a capable manager, who would benefit his employer and improve the host country's tax earnings), there are probably many countries which would welcome him, and in that sense he does have a choice where he can live, does he not. And is it his fault some idiot ticked the wrong box?
    - notatoad 7y ago
      "some idiot ticked the box wrong" is reading the blog post uncritically. that's obviously the author's perspective here, but it doesn't really make sense. he signed his name to a blank section of the form. that signature is an attestation that the blank section immediately above it was filled in truthfully. it can't be both blank and filled in truthfully. that somebody ticked off a box in that section later on is beside the point (all the other options appear to require additional information, which was also not provided, so whoever ticked off that box made a decent assumption). it's a mistake in the same way as signing a blank check is a mistake
      - wbl 7y ago
        And now the US loses another talented individual. Is this really the best system?
    - rumanator 7y ago
      > Since he presumably meets the qualifications for many countries Actually he doesn't, because one of the very basic requirements is to not commit perjury in the application by providing a document claiming he was an US citizen when he was not. And I find it highly unlikely that an employee not only forgets to fill in the box attesting his legal status in the US but also an anonymous third party happens to fill it, and fills it the wrongest (and most convenient) way possible.
- bagacrap 7y ago
  If "by all appearances" you mean "according to one autobiographical blog post". My default is empathy because it feels good and costs me nothing, but I don't think authorities have the same luxury when considering the claims of arbitrary individuals who could easily be pathological liars. The Bay Area tech ethos of "disruption" often boils down to bending or flaunting the rules to achieve what you think is a worthy goal, and this guy obviously felt the calling of San Francisco quite strongly. Now you're telling me there's no way a person who spent all those years single-mindedly focused on long term residence in SF would ever check the wrong box on a form if he thought it would somehow improve his chances of achieving a lifelong goal?
redis_mlc 7y ago
> there's no excuse for not hiring an immigration lawyer 1) You're quite the zero-tolerance guy, aren't you? Except it's not that simple. Form I-9 page 1 is to be filled out by the worker within one day of starting a new job, and page 2 afterward by the employer within 2-3 days. So you don't have time to have your immigration lawyer actually look at it, unless you got some pre-filled form, which doesn't normally happen. In fact, you fill in page one and return it to the employer for the next step. 2) Having said that, I appreciate the original blog post bringing this to my attention, and plan to be more careful with this form than the last dozen times I've signed it. I'm pretty sharp with US employment, tax and passport forms, yet that's the first time that I've heard somebody being banned for an I-9 mistake.
- rumanator 7y ago
  > Except it's not that simple. The case presented so far is actually quite simple. The prospective immigrant is required to state if he is a citizen, permanent resident, or alien authorized to work. That's the employee's job, not the employer. If the employee forgets he is an alien and claims he is a US citizen then that's a problem.
- overlordalex 7y ago
  > Except it's not that simple. Form I-9 page 1 is to be filled out by the worker within one day of starting a new job Looks like its any time up to the first day of work, however the wording is a little confusing. How can you start work without accepting a job offer? >> Employees must complete and sign Section 1 of Form I-9 no later than the first day of employment, but not before accepting a job offer. > I'm pretty sharp with US employment, tax and passport forms, yet that's the first time that I've heard somebody being banned for an I-9 mistake. The form clearly states some severe penalties for not answering honestly. Seems like the author got off lucky! >> I am aware that federal law provides for imprisonment and/or fines for false statements or use of false documents in connection with the completion of this form. >> I attest, under penalty of perjury, that I am (check one of the following boxes):
  - smileybarry 7y ago

philipkiely 7y ago

Please consider the situation with empathy. A real person, who by all appearances would make a good citizen, is unable to live in the country of his choice because of a single clerical error. Perfection is too high a bar to hold anyone to.

notatoad 7y ago
being able to live in your country of choice is a privilege denied to a huge number of people who have never made a clerical error that looks identical to lying about their citizenship. I understand this guy's problem, and i'm sad for him. but looking at it from the perspective of everybody else who's ever gone through the immigration process, or the people working on the immigration process, i can also understand why this situation couldn't really have any other end result.
- redis_mlc 7y ago
  Please read my comment above and stop being an argumentative pedant. Form I-9 is primarily an employment document, not an immigration document.
  - rumanator 7y ago
    > Form I-9 is primarily an employment document The form is a requirement to be able to immigrate to the US. No form, no imigration. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_I-9 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Form_I-9
    - sveiss 7y ago
      You can immigrate to the US without ever filling out an I-9, if you never work as an employee while in the US. On the other hand, a US citizen who never leaves the country might fill out dozens over the course of a career, depending on how often they switch jobs.
- jariel 7y ago
  "i can also understand why this situation couldn't really have any other end result" No, this is not true. Mistakes happen all the time, everywhere. This guy had no motivation to lie on a simple form. If you want to see how this works, check with your bank. Mistakes are made all the time processing money, and usually things can be fixed.
- LorenPechtel 7y ago
  This has nothing to do with the immigration process. My wife is an immigrant, all our headaches with those idiots didn't involve a single I-9 form.
rumanator 7y ago
> is unable to live in the country of his choice That's not how things work. You don't have a right to pick and choose which countries you enter, let alone live. Emigrating is a privilege that's granted by the host nation. If a nation asks a prospective imigrant to not commit fraud or misrepresent himself while applying for a privilege, no one should be surprised if they reject your application when you are caught providing false information.
- netsharc 7y ago
  Since he presumably meets the qualifications for many countries (he's a capable manager, who would benefit his employer and improve the host country's tax earnings), there are probably many countries which would welcome him, and in that sense he does have a choice where he can live, does he not. And is it his fault some idiot ticked the wrong box?
  - notatoad 7y ago
    "some idiot ticked the box wrong" is reading the blog post uncritically. that's obviously the author's perspective here, but it doesn't really make sense. he signed his name to a blank section of the form. that signature is an attestation that the blank section immediately above it was filled in truthfully. it can't be both blank and filled in truthfully. that somebody ticked off a box in that section later on is beside the point (all the other options appear to require additional information, which was also not provided, so whoever ticked off that box made a decent assumption). it's a mistake in the same way as signing a blank check is a mistake
    - wbl 7y ago
      And now the US loses another talented individual. Is this really the best system?
  - rumanator 7y ago
    > Since he presumably meets the qualifications for many countries Actually he doesn't, because one of the very basic requirements is to not commit perjury in the application by providing a document claiming he was an US citizen when he was not. And I find it highly unlikely that an employee not only forgets to fill in the box attesting his legal status in the US but also an anonymous third party happens to fill it, and fills it the wrongest (and most convenient) way possible.
bagacrap 7y ago
If "by all appearances" you mean "according to one autobiographical blog post". My default is empathy because it feels good and costs me nothing, but I don't think authorities have the same luxury when considering the claims of arbitrary individuals who could easily be pathological liars. The Bay Area tech ethos of "disruption" often boils down to bending or flaunting the rules to achieve what you think is a worthy goal, and this guy obviously felt the calling of San Francisco quite strongly. Now you're telling me there's no way a person who spent all those years single-mindedly focused on long term residence in SF would ever check the wrong box on a form if he thought it would somehow improve his chances of achieving a lifelong goal?

redis_mlc 7y ago

> there's no excuse for not hiring an immigration lawyer 1) You're quite the zero-tolerance guy, aren't you? Except it's not that simple. Form I-9 page 1 is to be filled out by the worker within one day of starting a new job, and page 2 afterward by the employer within 2-3 days. So you don't have time to have your immigration lawyer actually look at it, unless you got some pre-filled form, which doesn't normally happen. In fact, you fill in page one and return it to the employer for the next step. 2) Having said that, I appreciate the original blog post bringing this to my attention, and plan to be more careful with this form than the last dozen times I've signed it. I'm pretty sharp with US employment, tax and passport forms, yet that's the first time that I've heard somebody being banned for an I-9 mistake.

rumanator 7y ago
> Except it's not that simple. The case presented so far is actually quite simple. The prospective immigrant is required to state if he is a citizen, permanent resident, or alien authorized to work. That's the employee's job, not the employer. If the employee forgets he is an alien and claims he is a US citizen then that's a problem.
overlordalex 7y ago
> Except it's not that simple. Form I-9 page 1 is to be filled out by the worker within one day of starting a new job Looks like its any time up to the first day of work, however the wording is a little confusing. How can you start work without accepting a job offer? >> Employees must complete and sign Section 1 of Form I-9 no later than the first day of employment, but not before accepting a job offer. > I'm pretty sharp with US employment, tax and passport forms, yet that's the first time that I've heard somebody being banned for an I-9 mistake. The form clearly states some severe penalties for not answering honestly. Seems like the author got off lucky! >> I am aware that federal law provides for imprisonment and/or fines for false statements or use of false documents in connection with the completion of this form. >> I attest, under penalty of perjury, that I am (check one of the following boxes):
- smileybarry 7y ago