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I agree with this. I think we need a guild. We need licensed software engineers. Not every programmer needs to be one, just like not every engineer needs to b

I agree with this. I think we need a guild. We need licensed software engineers. Not every programmer needs to be one, just like not every engineer needs to be licensed, but there needs to be a licensed engineer on every team. And, of course, sometimes there doesn't need to be. But I sure wish there was the option. And hell, bring back apprenticeships and mentoring with the guild. There is so much we could learn from the physical science engineering disciplines

aspaceman 7y ago
It's true. We do. People don't want CS degrees to mean a "programming" degree, and this is one way to do. Create guilds, apprenticeships, and mentoring so that when companies push for faster code, more programmers, etc, we have a solution.
city41 7y ago
It's an interesting idea, but I feel like a lot of the cause of the problem is unrealistic deadlines and a desire to build software insanely fast.
pm90 7y ago
While the apprenticeship model is a good one and can work in software, I would be wary of such an effort considering how rapidly software evolves. Guilds work well for technologies that are fairly stable and require years of practice and study to get right (metal working, carpentry, plumbing, surgery etc.), while with software you could specialize in languages and frameworks that become obsolete in the order of decades. However, the idea of working closely with Senior Engineers and learning from them is certainly something that I vehemently agree with. I've been fortunate to have had that opportunity.
- eximius 7y ago
  While software engineering is growing and evolving, there's also a lot of cyclical fads that we should look past. Sure, there is the framework du jour, but the fundamentals of computer science and software engineering grow far slower. Mastery of frameworks is NOT mastery of our craft. They are useful tools that can come and go. But the underlying principles are what should concern is. To that point, none of your examples of stable disciplines are static. New surgical tools, techniques, and technology are constantly produced and surgeons must learn to lay down their old ones and adapt. Metalworking, carpentry, plumbing all need to learn about new materials developed and code changes. All of those things are like frameworks.

aspaceman 7y ago

It's true. We do. People don't want CS degrees to mean a "programming" degree, and this is one way to do. Create guilds, apprenticeships, and mentoring so that when companies push for faster code, more programmers, etc, we have a solution.

city41 7y ago

It's an interesting idea, but I feel like a lot of the cause of the problem is unrealistic deadlines and a desire to build software insanely fast.

pm90 7y ago

While the apprenticeship model is a good one and can work in software, I would be wary of such an effort considering how rapidly software evolves. Guilds work well for technologies that are fairly stable and require years of practice and study to get right (metal working, carpentry, plumbing, surgery etc.), while with software you could specialize in languages and frameworks that become obsolete in the order of decades. However, the idea of working closely with Senior Engineers and learning from them is certainly something that I vehemently agree with. I've been fortunate to have had that opportunity.

eximius 7y ago
While software engineering is growing and evolving, there's also a lot of cyclical fads that we should look past. Sure, there is the framework du jour, but the fundamentals of computer science and software engineering grow far slower. Mastery of frameworks is NOT mastery of our craft. They are useful tools that can come and go. But the underlying principles are what should concern is. To that point, none of your examples of stable disciplines are static. New surgical tools, techniques, and technology are constantly produced and surgeons must learn to lay down their old ones and adapt. Metalworking, carpentry, plumbing all need to learn about new materials developed and code changes. All of those things are like frameworks.