5 ms·

A well maintained engine will last longer than a battery pack, and cost less to replace (or rebuild).

xbmcuser 7y ago
Battery prices are still falling 10-15% a year. So needing to replace the battery 5-8 years from now won't cost as much as needing to replace an ice engine. And the way Tesla batteries are lasting so far I think you could probably get a good price for the old battery as well. So the cost people keep talking about battery replacement wont be as much over time
- WillPostForFood 7y ago
  You can rebuild a 4 cylinder engine for under a $1000 dollars. Maybe half that in an area where labor is cheap. In 5 years, replacing a battery pack will still be 5x or 10x that.
  - NullPrefix 7y ago
    What kind of warranty could you expect for that $1000 engine rebuild job?
    - WillPostForFood 7y ago
      30 days? 90 days? Enough to show that it works, and will be good for another 200k mules.
      - NullPrefix 7y ago
        200k miles in 90 days sounds a lot.
SEJeff 7y ago
But the overall maintenance is going to cost much more on a well maintained engine. Oil changes, fan belts, flywheels, spark plugs, alternators, starters, etc don't exist in an EV. These are all components I have paid to have replaced in an ICE I've owned. Additionally, if your EV has regenerative braking (such as all Tesla vehicles), it is kind of like an ICE standard "engine braking" resulting in recharging the battery. This results in a much longer lifetime for brakes and brake pads. My Model 3 requires scheduled maintenance every 2 years and they recommend a tire rotation every 6,000 miles or so. Good luck finding that little maintenance in a traditional ICE vehicle. This is not the case for all EVs, but for Tesla, the battery is made up of thousands of individual cells which are grouped into individual "packs". The entire battery doesn't just go bad because the entire battery is thousands of small batteries. Tesla now will replace an individual pack that might go bad, making it cost less.
- WillPostForFood 7y ago
  This is true, but not what I was responding to, which was parent post about replacement cost. The low maintenance is one of the main reasons I drive a BEV. But the high replacement costs is a major factor in why I lease it.
- clarry 7y ago
  > This results in a much longer lifetime for brakes and brake pads. My issue with brakes is that they rust because I don't apparently use them enough.
- ChuckNorris89 7y ago
  >But the overall maintenance is going to cost much more on a well maintained engine. Oil changes, fan belts, flywheels, spark plugs, alternators, starters, etc don't exist in an EV. Not to burst your bubble but just because a Tesla has fewer moving mechanical parts that can break in a traditional ICE car does not make it automatically more reliable, it's just that the points if failure are now electrical and mostly silicon based. IIRC there was a story posted here a couple of days ago where someone's Tesla broke down while parked. That doesn't prove anything but just like how in a ICE car a fan belt can fail, so can a flash chip, MOSFET or sensor in a Tesla causing it to break down. Remember when people thought SSDs would be way more reliable than HDDs just on the basis of having no moving parts? Boy were we wrong. The failure rate of(some) SSDs is staggering, just that now it's caused by electrical faults rather than mechanical. Right now we have too few out of warranty Teslas to draw any conclusions about reliability. At least for out of warranty ICE cars there are loads of aftermarket parts and garages that can fix things on the cheap when they break. I'm not sure we can say the same for out of warranty Teslas yet.
- petre 7y ago
  Even if you throw away part of the energy the engine will work as a brake in generator mode. Trains use this to limit speed down when descending.
  - SEJeff 7y ago
    Yes and manual transmission or commercial trucks use this to "engine brake".
CydeWeys 7y ago
We're a decade in on BEVs and the whole "replace your battery pack" worry has utterly failed to materialize. Most BEVs will simply never need a replacement.
- WillPostForFood 7y ago
  Why does Nissan have a battery pack replacement program if they never need to be replaced? https://electrek.co/2018/03/26/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-replacement-program/ https://electrek.co/2018/03/26/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-repl...
  - adrianN 7y ago
    Because Nissan has pretty poor thermal management of their battery packs. Tesla's batteries are doing much better.
    - WillPostForFood 7y ago
      This is thread isn’t about Teslas, it is about the whole electric car industry. Tesla defenders don’t need to get their hackles up. Parent post said batteries in BEVs will never need to be replaced.
      - adrianN 7y ago
        I mentioned it because I used to assume that serious degradation is just something batteries do, but I learned that this is wrong and proper battery management all but eliminates the problem.
adrianN 7y ago
Tesla battery packs have degraded less than 10% after 250000 km. I think it's very rare to see ICEs that last for more than 500000km.

Battery prices are still falling 10-15% a year. So needing to replace the battery 5-8 years from now won't cost as much as needing to replace an ice engine. And the way Tesla batteries are lasting so far I think you could probably get a good price for the old battery as well. So the cost people keep talking about battery replacement wont be as much over time

WillPostForFood 7y ago
You can rebuild a 4 cylinder engine for under a $1000 dollars. Maybe half that in an area where labor is cheap. In 5 years, replacing a battery pack will still be 5x or 10x that.
- NullPrefix 7y ago
  What kind of warranty could you expect for that $1000 engine rebuild job?
  - WillPostForFood 7y ago
    30 days? 90 days? Enough to show that it works, and will be good for another 200k mules.
    - NullPrefix 7y ago
      200k miles in 90 days sounds a lot.

SEJeff 7y ago

But the overall maintenance is going to cost much more on a well maintained engine. Oil changes, fan belts, flywheels, spark plugs, alternators, starters, etc don't exist in an EV. These are all components I have paid to have replaced in an ICE I've owned. Additionally, if your EV has regenerative braking (such as all Tesla vehicles), it is kind of like an ICE standard "engine braking" resulting in recharging the battery. This results in a much longer lifetime for brakes and brake pads. My Model 3 requires scheduled maintenance every 2 years and they recommend a tire rotation every 6,000 miles or so. Good luck finding that little maintenance in a traditional ICE vehicle. This is not the case for all EVs, but for Tesla, the battery is made up of thousands of individual cells which are grouped into individual "packs". The entire battery doesn't just go bad because the entire battery is thousands of small batteries. Tesla now will replace an individual pack that might go bad, making it cost less.

WillPostForFood 7y ago
This is true, but not what I was responding to, which was parent post about replacement cost. The low maintenance is one of the main reasons I drive a BEV. But the high replacement costs is a major factor in why I lease it.
clarry 7y ago
> This results in a much longer lifetime for brakes and brake pads. My issue with brakes is that they rust because I don't apparently use them enough.
ChuckNorris89 7y ago
>But the overall maintenance is going to cost much more on a well maintained engine. Oil changes, fan belts, flywheels, spark plugs, alternators, starters, etc don't exist in an EV. Not to burst your bubble but just because a Tesla has fewer moving mechanical parts that can break in a traditional ICE car does not make it automatically more reliable, it's just that the points if failure are now electrical and mostly silicon based. IIRC there was a story posted here a couple of days ago where someone's Tesla broke down while parked. That doesn't prove anything but just like how in a ICE car a fan belt can fail, so can a flash chip, MOSFET or sensor in a Tesla causing it to break down. Remember when people thought SSDs would be way more reliable than HDDs just on the basis of having no moving parts? Boy were we wrong. The failure rate of(some) SSDs is staggering, just that now it's caused by electrical faults rather than mechanical. Right now we have too few out of warranty Teslas to draw any conclusions about reliability. At least for out of warranty ICE cars there are loads of aftermarket parts and garages that can fix things on the cheap when they break. I'm not sure we can say the same for out of warranty Teslas yet.
petre 7y ago
Even if you throw away part of the energy the engine will work as a brake in generator mode. Trains use this to limit speed down when descending.
- SEJeff 7y ago
  Yes and manual transmission or commercial trucks use this to "engine brake".

CydeWeys 7y ago

We're a decade in on BEVs and the whole "replace your battery pack" worry has utterly failed to materialize. Most BEVs will simply never need a replacement.

WillPostForFood 7y ago
Why does Nissan have a battery pack replacement program if they never need to be replaced? https://electrek.co/2018/03/26/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-replacement-program/ https://electrek.co/2018/03/26/nissan-leaf-battery-pack-repl...
- adrianN 7y ago
  Because Nissan has pretty poor thermal management of their battery packs. Tesla's batteries are doing much better.
  - WillPostForFood 7y ago
    This is thread isn’t about Teslas, it is about the whole electric car industry. Tesla defenders don’t need to get their hackles up. Parent post said batteries in BEVs will never need to be replaced.
    - adrianN 7y ago
      I mentioned it because I used to assume that serious degradation is just something batteries do, but I learned that this is wrong and proper battery management all but eliminates the problem.

adrianN 7y ago

Tesla battery packs have degraded less than 10% after 250000 km. I think it's very rare to see ICEs that last for more than 500000km.