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It's so insane to me that Grover Norquist somehow lobbied against free tax filing provided by the IRS. It escapes all logic that he didn't pay attention to what

by xrd 7y ago

It's so insane to me that Grover Norquist somehow lobbied against free tax filing provided by the IRS. It escapes all logic that he didn't pay attention to what other countries do. It escapes all logic that he didn't think for a moment about what the cost would be to citizens in (more or less direct payments to Intuit) and that's not considering the incalculable cost of just gathering up all this documentation and put it into TurboTax. Billions of dollars in lost man power? Billions of dollars in wealth transfers from middle and lower class people? Probably more like Trillions. Norquist didn't succeed in drowning the government in the bathtub. He DID successfully manage to keep the entire US citizenry drowning in billions of hours of wasted effort and billions of dollars of unnecessary expenditures. Good work, Norquist!

danieltillett 7y ago
It is not insane, just not obvious what Grover’s aim is. He is anti-tax for a large number of reasons. By making paying tax painful for the majority of people he is trying to increase the percentage of the population that hate the IRS and taxes. All very sane if your aim is to lower taxes.
- stonogo 7y ago
  Only if you don't care who you hurt on the way to your goal. We may have different definitions of sanity.
  - danieltillett 7y ago
    Now we are getting to the question if his aim is ethical or not. I think his obsession with reducing taxation at all costs is misguided and often counterproductive, but it is not insane.
- xrd 7y ago
  Ok, this makes me feel like maybe he had intention and thought behind this. I can honestly align with that thinking if he was doing it for this reason. It seems like the world only works with subterfuge, sadly. Is it impossible to be honest about what you want to do and move people in that direction, or is it only possible to motivate change by lying to people. I don't love Grover Norquist, but I thought it was interesting/open-minded of him to see Burning Man for himself. And, I align with the idea of reducing taxes. So, this makes me feel like he was not just a useful idiot if he actually did it for this reason. But, still, what a cost to bear. And, does the long term goal of reducing taxation by causing people to hate the IRS get him any closer to actually reducing taxes and/or getting rid of the IRS? Obviously, that did not happen.
  - danieltillett 7y ago
    Whatever Grover Norquist is, stupid is not one. He appears to be quite a complex (if obsessed) person and his views outside of taxation don’t fall easily on the normal left/right axis [1]. 1. https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist
    - xrd 7y ago
      He just has so many strange positions that may be "smart" but, at least at first glance, seem to have awful side effects. From that page: "In 1985, he went to a conference in South Africa sponsored by South African businesses called the "Youth for Freedom Conference", which sought to bring American and South African conservatives together to end the anti-apartheid movement." Why would anyone work to end the anti-apartheid movement? Did Norquist think that divestment and free-trade would be more effective in ending apartheid? https://www.thenation.com/article/meet-conservatives-who-campaigned-apartheid-south-africa/ https://www.thenation.com/article/meet-conservatives-who-cam... Didn't know that Jeff Flake, the sole anti-Trump Republican US senator, was also active in that movement. I have often felt down on my luck about my employment opportunities, but never have I considered working as a lobbyist for a South African mining company during Apartheid. The book "My Traitor's Heart" has some riveting stories about the horrors of being a mine worker in South Africa before apartheid ended.
m463 7y ago
Look at it from the other side. How can you get the MAXIMUM tax revenue from your citizens? The easiest way is to do it slowly, and if possible hide it. #1 1913 implement an income tax #2 1942 implement payroll withholding (easier to take what you never saw) #3 make it convenient to just say "ok" to complicated taxes (free filing) I'm surprised they didn't give you a "tax break" for letting the government do your taxes for you.

by xrd 7y ago

danieltillett 7y ago

It is not insane, just not obvious what Grover’s aim is. He is anti-tax for a large number of reasons. By making paying tax painful for the majority of people he is trying to increase the percentage of the population that hate the IRS and taxes. All very sane if your aim is to lower taxes.

stonogo 7y ago
Only if you don't care who you hurt on the way to your goal. We may have different definitions of sanity.
- danieltillett 7y ago
  Now we are getting to the question if his aim is ethical or not. I think his obsession with reducing taxation at all costs is misguided and often counterproductive, but it is not insane.
xrd 7y ago
Ok, this makes me feel like maybe he had intention and thought behind this. I can honestly align with that thinking if he was doing it for this reason. It seems like the world only works with subterfuge, sadly. Is it impossible to be honest about what you want to do and move people in that direction, or is it only possible to motivate change by lying to people. I don't love Grover Norquist, but I thought it was interesting/open-minded of him to see Burning Man for himself. And, I align with the idea of reducing taxes. So, this makes me feel like he was not just a useful idiot if he actually did it for this reason. But, still, what a cost to bear. And, does the long term goal of reducing taxation by causing people to hate the IRS get him any closer to actually reducing taxes and/or getting rid of the IRS? Obviously, that did not happen.
- danieltillett 7y ago
  Whatever Grover Norquist is, stupid is not one. He appears to be quite a complex (if obsessed) person and his views outside of taxation don’t fall easily on the normal left/right axis [1]. 1. https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist https://www.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grover_Norquist
  - xrd 7y ago
    He just has so many strange positions that may be "smart" but, at least at first glance, seem to have awful side effects. From that page: "In 1985, he went to a conference in South Africa sponsored by South African businesses called the "Youth for Freedom Conference", which sought to bring American and South African conservatives together to end the anti-apartheid movement." Why would anyone work to end the anti-apartheid movement? Did Norquist think that divestment and free-trade would be more effective in ending apartheid? https://www.thenation.com/article/meet-conservatives-who-campaigned-apartheid-south-africa/ https://www.thenation.com/article/meet-conservatives-who-cam... Didn't know that Jeff Flake, the sole anti-Trump Republican US senator, was also active in that movement. I have often felt down on my luck about my employment opportunities, but never have I considered working as a lobbyist for a South African mining company during Apartheid. The book "My Traitor's Heart" has some riveting stories about the horrors of being a mine worker in South Africa before apartheid ended.

m463 7y ago

Look at it from the other side. How can you get the MAXIMUM tax revenue from your citizens? The easiest way is to do it slowly, and if possible hide it. #1 1913 implement an income tax #2 1942 implement payroll withholding (easier to take what you never saw) #3 make it convenient to just say "ok" to complicated taxes (free filing) I'm surprised they didn't give you a "tax break" for letting the government do your taxes for you.