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> > The criticism towards Google, Apple etc. for minimizing their tax burdens has always been misplaced. > It's a valid criticism if you don't think that "Corp

by growse 7y ago

> > The criticism towards Google, Apple etc. for minimizing their tax burdens has always been misplaced. > It's a valid criticism if you don't think that "Corporations are supposed to maximize profits" should be true. When anything can be justified because it maximizes profits it becomes very, very easy to be a technically law abiding unethical company which is a net negative on society. Isn't this why society comes together to form a government and pass laws to prevent these sorts of behaviours? Not every corporation will be looking to maximize profits, but they're generally all looking to maximize something typically at the expense of something else. From a selfish perspective, externalising your costs is a good thing.

javajosh 7y ago
>Isn't this why society comes together to form a government and pass laws to prevent these sorts of behaviours? No, people form (limited) government to prevent abuse from government. The idea that a company could abuse you in any substantial way (other than fraud, violating contract terms) must have seemed like an edge case (only the East India Company would have been large enough to present such a threat circa 1775). So, maybe your claim would work if you consider companies to be a form of government, which is an entirely defensible position.
- barrkel 7y ago
  People form governments to set the rules for their society. You don't get to define what is and isn't legitimate government on principles other than democratic consent.
chongli 7y ago
Society is made up of human beings, most of whom are affected by emotions like guilt and empathy. Society works best when we are able to assume good faith from all participants. It breaks down when free riders (those unbound by empathy or mores) reach some critical threshold and then everyone loses trust in the system. Have you ever been in a group of friends and played a board game where everyone was playing casually to have a good time, except for that one guy? MtG fans call this type of player Spike [1]. Other gaming circles refer to these players as munchkins and they’ve been immortalized in the card game Munchkin [2]. I think most people have played with someone like this before. Their obsession with winning at all costs ruins the game for everyone else. This is what big corporations are like! They put mom & pop out of business. They drive down wages and destroy the environment. They play one government against the other in order to minimize their taxes while maximizing their subsidies. They are the Spikes of society. We try to fight them with legislation but our laws are always one step behind. If Google is making an announcement like this, you can be sure they’ve found something else that works even better for them. You can’t expect them to give anything away without a fight. [1] https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Player_type#Spike https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Player_type#Spike [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_(card_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_(card_game)
- growse 7y ago
  > Society is made up of human beings, most of whom are affected by emotions like guilt and empathy. Society works best when we are able to assume good faith from all participants. It breaks down when free riders (those unbound by empathy or mores) reach some critical threshold and then everyone loses trust in the system. Human beings also self-organise and incorporate into groups, which may individually have their own distinct aims. I'm not sure what guilt and empathy have to do with organisations of people though. "Good faith" is also pretty meaningless, as it doesn't really describe any specific behaviour or motivation. What happens when two individuals (or groups) come into conflict trying to optimise their own outcomes "in good faith"? > They play one government against the other in order to minimize their taxes while maximizing their subsidies. They are the Spikes of society. We try to fight them with legislation but our laws are always one step behind. I, as an individual, choose to use a low tax savings scheme to minimize my tax burden. I also make sure to claim every tax credit (or subsidy) that I'm entitled to. Am I a 'spike' in society?
  - chongli 7y ago
    I, as an individual, choose to use a low tax savings scheme to minimize my tax burden. I also make sure to claim every tax credit (or subsidy) that I'm entitled to. Am I a 'spike' in society? Have you been using “Double Irish” accounting? Do you keep your money offshore and lobby the government for favourable laws that let you repatriate the money while avoiding billions in taxes? No, probably not. You’re doing what normal people do as part of the game. You probably don’t have your own accounting department with a payroll in the millions whose entire mission is to scour the tax codes of every country in the world, looking for loopholes like this. A “Spike” is someone who will stop at nothing to win. They bring in the most obscure rules and take maximum advantage of every possibility, convenience be damned. You just sound like a sensible person who makes the best of the laws as they were designed for people like you.

by growse 7y ago

javajosh 7y ago

>Isn't this why society comes together to form a government and pass laws to prevent these sorts of behaviours? No, people form (limited) government to prevent abuse from government. The idea that a company could abuse you in any substantial way (other than fraud, violating contract terms) must have seemed like an edge case (only the East India Company would have been large enough to present such a threat circa 1775). So, maybe your claim would work if you consider companies to be a form of government, which is an entirely defensible position.

barrkel 7y ago
People form governments to set the rules for their society. You don't get to define what is and isn't legitimate government on principles other than democratic consent.

chongli 7y ago

Society is made up of human beings, most of whom are affected by emotions like guilt and empathy. Society works best when we are able to assume good faith from all participants. It breaks down when free riders (those unbound by empathy or mores) reach some critical threshold and then everyone loses trust in the system. Have you ever been in a group of friends and played a board game where everyone was playing casually to have a good time, except for that one guy? MtG fans call this type of player Spike [1]. Other gaming circles refer to these players as munchkins and they’ve been immortalized in the card game Munchkin [2]. I think most people have played with someone like this before. Their obsession with winning at all costs ruins the game for everyone else. This is what big corporations are like! They put mom & pop out of business. They drive down wages and destroy the environment. They play one government against the other in order to minimize their taxes while maximizing their subsidies. They are the Spikes of society. We try to fight them with legislation but our laws are always one step behind. If Google is making an announcement like this, you can be sure they’ve found something else that works even better for them. You can’t expect them to give anything away without a fight. [1] https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Player_type#Spike https://mtg.gamepedia.com/Player_type#Spike [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_(card_game) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Munchkin_(card_game)

growse 7y ago
> Society is made up of human beings, most of whom are affected by emotions like guilt and empathy. Society works best when we are able to assume good faith from all participants. It breaks down when free riders (those unbound by empathy or mores) reach some critical threshold and then everyone loses trust in the system. Human beings also self-organise and incorporate into groups, which may individually have their own distinct aims. I'm not sure what guilt and empathy have to do with organisations of people though. "Good faith" is also pretty meaningless, as it doesn't really describe any specific behaviour or motivation. What happens when two individuals (or groups) come into conflict trying to optimise their own outcomes "in good faith"? > They play one government against the other in order to minimize their taxes while maximizing their subsidies. They are the Spikes of society. We try to fight them with legislation but our laws are always one step behind. I, as an individual, choose to use a low tax savings scheme to minimize my tax burden. I also make sure to claim every tax credit (or subsidy) that I'm entitled to. Am I a 'spike' in society?
- chongli 7y ago
  I, as an individual, choose to use a low tax savings scheme to minimize my tax burden. I also make sure to claim every tax credit (or subsidy) that I'm entitled to. Am I a 'spike' in society? Have you been using “Double Irish” accounting? Do you keep your money offshore and lobby the government for favourable laws that let you repatriate the money while avoiding billions in taxes? No, probably not. You’re doing what normal people do as part of the game. You probably don’t have your own accounting department with a payroll in the millions whose entire mission is to scour the tax codes of every country in the world, looking for loopholes like this. A “Spike” is someone who will stop at nothing to win. They bring in the most obscure rules and take maximum advantage of every possibility, convenience be damned. You just sound like a sensible person who makes the best of the laws as they were designed for people like you.