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Meanwhile in Italy they are building lithium battery factories and working on converting diesel buses to electric. The infrastructure shift will be huge and new

by kfk 7y ago

Meanwhile in Italy they are building lithium battery factories and working on converting diesel buses to electric. The infrastructure shift will be huge and new companies will need to raise to tackle that. For instance, Tourin has circa 800 buses for public transport today - you cannot charge all of them at the same time now as there is no infrastructure and not enough power in the grid. I somehow think that if even Italy is embracing electric as the “next thing” while Germany automakers still firmly hold their heads in the sand then it could be a pretty bad blow for Germany in the coming decade. Amazingly enough all of this could still be avoided if German automotive companies accept for once that the world is changing, will they though. * http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/media/Vrooom-La-prima-fabbrica-italiana-di-batterie-a-celle-di-litio-d624b164-3f13-4997-8582-fb2341d9c3f9.html http://www.rainews.it/dl/rainews/media/Vrooom-La-prima-fabbr...

pintxo 7y ago
Considering the story about the burning (diesel) busses in Rome last year [1], maybe switching to batteries is not such a good idea for Italy? [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/10/world/europe/rome-exploding-buses-fire.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/10/world/europe/rome-explodi...
ulfw 7y ago
You can't charge 800 buses in Torino but you can charge 8000 in Shenzhen? What's wrong with the Italian grid if this is true?
- Someone 7y ago
  Population of Turin: 880k or 2.2M for the metropolitan area (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_City_of_Turin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_City_of_Turin) Population of Shenzhen: 12.5M or 23M for the metropolitan area (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhen) ⇒ the Torino grid need not be worse than the Shenzhen one for that to be true.
  - olivermarks 7y ago
    https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-30/shenzhen-the-first-quieter-megacity-thanks-to-electric-vehicles https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-30/shenzhen-... Shenzhen has a modern smart grid designed to accommodate EV charging. It seems likely that BYD and other Chinese EV makers will quickly take over the global vehicle industry. It is the end of an era for european car makers, killed off by environmental regulation and penalties, and EV subsidies
- peteretep 7y ago
  I would expect almost all Italian infrastructure to be older than the Chinese equivalent, and still paying off the capital needed to create it.
- mjpuser 7y ago
  I think one contributing factor slowing down progress is the cost of electricity in Italy. It's €0.24/kwh vs $0.06/kwh in the US (at least in PA). You dont see any electric cars in Italy, and it seems super expensive to them. I’m also not sure if there is a tax on top of that €0.24 from what I remember my cousin telling me. I’m hitting a language barrier confirming this.
  - mikeyouse 7y ago
    Much closer to $0.25 in San Francisco.. From my bill last month: Generation charges: $22.33 Peak Usage: 62kWh @ $0.29672 Off-Peak Usage: 258kWh @ $0.28243 Baseline Credit: 246kWh @ -0.0832 Total usage: 320kWh @ $0.2160/kWh
    - SEJeff 7y ago
      My dad pays $0.08 / kWh for electricity in Kentucky. San Francisco has very expensive electricity compared to much of the country. The average US electric rate is $0.12 / kWh for reference.
      - danans 7y ago
        Kentucky is 75% coal powered, mostly using old existing coal plants. As those plants age out of their usable lifetime, Kentucky utilities will have to choose between some combination of renewables and storage or natural gas or nuclear, all of which have higher costs than operating the defunct coal plants, but lower capital costs than building new coal plants. This will result in a rise in their prices over time. Of course, comparing the future costs of new non-coal plants doesn't account for the huge existing public health and environmental costs of burning coal for electricity, which would be avoided by any of the other technologies.
        SEJeff 7y ago
        Kentucky has been transitioning to natgas for some time now. The TVA shut down three big coal plants and another big utility also shut down a big coal plant last year. They’re not building new coal plants but natgas plants. That’s not going to change the economics much. I’m hoping Kentucky starts to do more solar as it is pretty decent for sun, but the local politics likely think solar + stationary battery storage is some lib-ruhl conspiracy.
- torpfactory 7y ago
  I think the issue with bus charging is that if you want to plug in all those busses at their various depots and charge overnight, the electrical infrastructure can’t support the new load (multiple megawatts per depot). Bus depots were never wired for that kind of load. You literally need to build new substations and wires to service a fleet of busses. I think there is probably generation capacity but it might not be deliverable to where it’s needed.

by kfk 7y ago

pintxo 7y ago

Considering the story about the burning (diesel) busses in Rome last year [1], maybe switching to batteries is not such a good idea for Italy? [1] https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/10/world/europe/rome-exploding-buses-fire.html https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/10/world/europe/rome-explodi...

ulfw 7y ago

You can't charge 800 buses in Torino but you can charge 8000 in Shenzhen? What's wrong with the Italian grid if this is true?

Someone 7y ago
Population of Turin: 880k or 2.2M for the metropolitan area (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turin, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_City_of_Turin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metropolitan_City_of_Turin) Population of Shenzhen: 12.5M or 23M for the metropolitan area (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shenzhen) ⇒ the Torino grid need not be worse than the Shenzhen one for that to be true.
- olivermarks 7y ago
  https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-30/shenzhen-the-first-quieter-megacity-thanks-to-electric-vehicles https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2018-08-30/shenzhen-... Shenzhen has a modern smart grid designed to accommodate EV charging. It seems likely that BYD and other Chinese EV makers will quickly take over the global vehicle industry. It is the end of an era for european car makers, killed off by environmental regulation and penalties, and EV subsidies
peteretep 7y ago
I would expect almost all Italian infrastructure to be older than the Chinese equivalent, and still paying off the capital needed to create it.
mjpuser 7y ago
I think one contributing factor slowing down progress is the cost of electricity in Italy. It's €0.24/kwh vs $0.06/kwh in the US (at least in PA). You dont see any electric cars in Italy, and it seems super expensive to them. I’m also not sure if there is a tax on top of that €0.24 from what I remember my cousin telling me. I’m hitting a language barrier confirming this.
- mikeyouse 7y ago
  Much closer to $0.25 in San Francisco.. From my bill last month: Generation charges: $22.33 Peak Usage: 62kWh @ $0.29672 Off-Peak Usage: 258kWh @ $0.28243 Baseline Credit: 246kWh @ -0.0832 Total usage: 320kWh @ $0.2160/kWh
  - SEJeff 7y ago
    My dad pays $0.08 / kWh for electricity in Kentucky. San Francisco has very expensive electricity compared to much of the country. The average US electric rate is $0.12 / kWh for reference.
    - danans 7y ago
      Kentucky is 75% coal powered, mostly using old existing coal plants. As those plants age out of their usable lifetime, Kentucky utilities will have to choose between some combination of renewables and storage or natural gas or nuclear, all of which have higher costs than operating the defunct coal plants, but lower capital costs than building new coal plants. This will result in a rise in their prices over time. Of course, comparing the future costs of new non-coal plants doesn't account for the huge existing public health and environmental costs of burning coal for electricity, which would be avoided by any of the other technologies.
      - SEJeff 7y ago
        Kentucky has been transitioning to natgas for some time now. The TVA shut down three big coal plants and another big utility also shut down a big coal plant last year. They’re not building new coal plants but natgas plants. That’s not going to change the economics much. I’m hoping Kentucky starts to do more solar as it is pretty decent for sun, but the local politics likely think solar + stationary battery storage is some lib-ruhl conspiracy.
torpfactory 7y ago
I think the issue with bus charging is that if you want to plug in all those busses at their various depots and charge overnight, the electrical infrastructure can’t support the new load (multiple megawatts per depot). Bus depots were never wired for that kind of load. You literally need to build new substations and wires to service a fleet of busses. I think there is probably generation capacity but it might not be deliverable to where it’s needed.