5 ms·

I'd advocate for the opposite... I think everyone should own an acre or two, planted with as many trees as possible to stave off climate change. There are many

by asdf21 7y ago

I'd advocate for the opposite... I think everyone should own an acre or two, planted with as many trees as possible to stave off climate change. There are many more mental health issues in densely populated areas, much less biodiversity, more pollution, etc. >Alternatively, sufficient numbers of people stop having children altogether, We tried that, it was called billed as a "aging population crisis" and used as justification to import millions of people from other failed countries into the US.

bwanab 7y ago
Lots of people living far away from each other - this is the recipe for mental health issues related to loneliness. Young people are voting with their feet by moving from such areas to urban areas and they're staying there.
- asdf21 7y ago
  I'm one of those people.. and I hate it in the city. But I like making six figures and that's not currently possible where I'm from originally. >mental health issues related to loneliness Citation? It's a fact that urban living is associated with higher levels of mental illness, not just conjecture.
  - icebraining 7y ago
    I don't have a citation for loneliness per se, but suicide rates for young people are much higher in rural areas, "even after controlling for a broad array of county-level sociodemographic, economic, and health care system characteristics." https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2195006 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/... Of course, there's always the issue about whether suburbs and exurbs count as rural or urban, which leads to people talking past each other.
    - DanBC 7y ago
      I can't see where they controlled for distance needed to travel to reach emergency departments after a suicide attempt. I'm sure they did, because it's a pretty big factor for how many people die from some methods, but it would have been nice to see this more clearly described.
      - icebraining 7y ago
        Well, even if that accounts for part of the effect, it's still a benefit from urban living!
  - darksaints 7y ago
    Urban living might be associated with mental illness, but so is poverty. Not because poverty causes mental illness, but because mental illness causes poverty. Mental illness also causes people to live in cities, because their needs are better met in cities.
- foobiekr 7y ago
  It’s not like urban areas are not associated with mental health issues: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2014/feb/25/city-stress-mental-health-rural-kind https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2014/feb/25/city-stress-m...
- carapace 7y ago
  For literally millions of years humans would have known well only a handful of other people, and likely met less than ~100-200 other humans at all throughout an entire lifetime. Crowds are a new thing under the sun. Anyway, I like Christopher Alexander's "Interlocking Fingers" pattern: It seems someone has posted it here: http://iwritewordsgood.com/apl/patterns/apl003.htm http://iwritewordsgood.com/apl/patterns/apl003.htm > People feel comfortable when they have access to the countryside, experience of open fields, and agriculture; access to wild plants and birds and animals. For this access, cities must have boundaries with the countryside near every point. At the same time, a city becomes good for life only when it contains a great density of interactions among people and work, and different ways of life. For the sake of this interaction, the city must be continuous - not broken up. In this pattern we shall try to bring these two facts to balance. > ... > Therefore: Keep interlocking fingers of farmland and urban land, even at the center of the metropolis. The urban fingers should never be more than 1 mile wide, while the farmland fingers should never be less than 1 mile wide.
Ericson2314 7y ago
There are only 16 acres per person world wide
- BrandonMarc 7y ago
  Is that including ocean?
  - carapace 7y ago
    From: http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/THOC/land.html http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/THOC/land.html (Apologies for miles instead of kilometers.) > The total land surface area of Earth is about 57,308,738 square miles, of which about 33% is desert and about 24% is mountainous. In [1]: total_land_surface_area_square_miles = 57308738 ...: total_land_surface_acres = total_land_surface_area_square_miles / 0.0015625 ...: non_desert_non_mountain_acres = total_land_surface_acres * (1.0 - (0.33 + 0.24)) ...: acres_per_human = non_desert_non_mountain_acres / 7000000000.0 ...: print '%f' % acres_per_human ...: 2.253052 So about two-and-a-quarter acres of "good" land per human. And... > we have not allowed for any amenities such as highways, schools, hospitals, shopping malls, stadiums, agricultural fields, rivers, lakes, reservoirs, parks, golf courses, etc.
  - dredmorbius 7y ago
    Yes. The amount of land, excluding Antarctica, is less than five acres (about 2 hectares). The notional "40 acres and a mule" threshold was crossed in 1800. When you consider that land are translates directly to renewable energy flux, this becomes all the more interesting. Some growth trends from a few years back: https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/_bi5uhywbdyukhfy-eayjw https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/_bi5uhywbdyukhfy-eayjw
    - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
      our resources are limited. We have crossed carrying capacity 2 centuries ago. The world population has doubled in the past 50 years. I would hazard a guess that 4 billion is bearable. Optimal would be 2 billion.
icebraining 7y ago
> much less biodiversity, more pollution There's not more pollution, it just seems so because it's more concentrated. The pollution per capita in major US cities is quite a bit lower than the US average. Similarly, there's plenty of biodiversity in the spaces that people are leaving free by spreading less.
jelliclesfarm 7y ago
I agree with you, but I think people should still live densely but surrounded by combined acreage that not only staves climate change but also makes cities sustainable. The reason why the PTB oversell high density is because of high paying jobs and high property taxes. Funny..in CA, only Bay Area has a high density general plan. Not Visalia or Healdsburg. Because high density has nothing to do with sustainability. It only promises sustainability for the care and feeding of public sector employees who are guaranteed a pension and are racking up unfunded pension liabilities in CA. A 400k home in Visalia with 3 acres gets much less property tax than a 1500 sq ft 1.5 million dollar condo in Bay Area. So it is ok to stress the Bay Area resources. None of the services are cheaper. We are not gaining economies of scale due to the high density. What gives? As we automate and find alternative renewable energy(the only solution is nuclear), two things will happen..UBI and sustainability. From my POV, clusters of high density townships(Dunbar number is a good community head count) surrounded by enough land for sustainable closed loop systems networked and interconnected to other small townships to form a large townships and large townships clustered to network etc. This fractal design would ensure that cities are decentralized and yet the veins exist. A good example is Paris. The city’s design of Paris with its snail shape is close ..but there are other issues, but from city design perspective, it is a good functioning example. The problem with achieving sustainability goal is government. Edited to add: also..schools are another example. After California instituted the general plan to build more, all tax monies went into a single pot and redistributed https://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/fd/ec/documents/currentexpense1718.xlsx https://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/fd/ec/documents/currentexpense1718... Higher density areas get less money per student and lower density get more. But you can buy more in Oroville than in Berkeley. Or the value of a dollar is less in Berkeley than in Oroville. So people in high density areas.. usually highly educated with smaller family sizes and paying more taxes get less out of the public education system. This is to say that California should have get equal opportunity for education regardless of economic status. Because in a strange world of progressive politics in California, a school in Bay Area doesn’t have a proper swimming pool or PT equip and AP classes are cancelled because of anorexic school budget. But a blue collar town in Southern California has new buildings and smaller class sizes. It’s just bizarro world.

by asdf21 7y ago

bwanab 7y ago

Lots of people living far away from each other - this is the recipe for mental health issues related to loneliness. Young people are voting with their feet by moving from such areas to urban areas and they're staying there.

asdf21 7y ago
I'm one of those people.. and I hate it in the city. But I like making six figures and that's not currently possible where I'm from originally. >mental health issues related to loneliness Citation? It's a fact that urban living is associated with higher levels of mental illness, not just conjecture.
- icebraining 7y ago
  I don't have a citation for loneliness per se, but suicide rates for young people are much higher in rural areas, "even after controlling for a broad array of county-level sociodemographic, economic, and health care system characteristics." https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/2195006 https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapediatrics/fullarticle/... Of course, there's always the issue about whether suburbs and exurbs count as rural or urban, which leads to people talking past each other.
  - DanBC 7y ago
    I can't see where they controlled for distance needed to travel to reach emergency departments after a suicide attempt. I'm sure they did, because it's a pretty big factor for how many people die from some methods, but it would have been nice to see this more clearly described.
    - icebraining 7y ago
      Well, even if that accounts for part of the effect, it's still a benefit from urban living!
- darksaints 7y ago
  Urban living might be associated with mental illness, but so is poverty. Not because poverty causes mental illness, but because mental illness causes poverty. Mental illness also causes people to live in cities, because their needs are better met in cities.
foobiekr 7y ago
It’s not like urban areas are not associated with mental health issues: https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2014/feb/25/city-stress-mental-health-rural-kind https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2014/feb/25/city-stress-m...
carapace 7y ago
For literally millions of years humans would have known well only a handful of other people, and likely met less than ~100-200 other humans at all throughout an entire lifetime. Crowds are a new thing under the sun. Anyway, I like Christopher Alexander's "Interlocking Fingers" pattern: It seems someone has posted it here: http://iwritewordsgood.com/apl/patterns/apl003.htm http://iwritewordsgood.com/apl/patterns/apl003.htm > People feel comfortable when they have access to the countryside, experience of open fields, and agriculture; access to wild plants and birds and animals. For this access, cities must have boundaries with the countryside near every point. At the same time, a city becomes good for life only when it contains a great density of interactions among people and work, and different ways of life. For the sake of this interaction, the city must be continuous - not broken up. In this pattern we shall try to bring these two facts to balance. > ... > Therefore: Keep interlocking fingers of farmland and urban land, even at the center of the metropolis. The urban fingers should never be more than 1 mile wide, while the farmland fingers should never be less than 1 mile wide.

Ericson2314 7y ago

There are only 16 acres per person world wide

BrandonMarc 7y ago
Is that including ocean?
- carapace 7y ago
  From: http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/THOC/land.html http://www.zo.utexas.edu/courses/THOC/land.html (Apologies for miles instead of kilometers.) > The total land surface area of Earth is about 57,308,738 square miles, of which about 33% is desert and about 24% is mountainous. In [1]: total_land_surface_area_square_miles = 57308738 ...: total_land_surface_acres = total_land_surface_area_square_miles / 0.0015625 ...: non_desert_non_mountain_acres = total_land_surface_acres * (1.0 - (0.33 + 0.24)) ...: acres_per_human = non_desert_non_mountain_acres / 7000000000.0 ...: print '%f' % acres_per_human ...: 2.253052 So about two-and-a-quarter acres of "good" land per human. And... > we have not allowed for any amenities such as highways, schools, hospitals, shopping malls, stadiums, agricultural fields, rivers, lakes, reservoirs, parks, golf courses, etc.
- dredmorbius 7y ago
  Yes. The amount of land, excluding Antarctica, is less than five acres (about 2 hectares). The notional "40 acres and a mule" threshold was crossed in 1800. When you consider that land are translates directly to renewable energy flux, this becomes all the more interesting. Some growth trends from a few years back: https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/_bi5uhywbdyukhfy-eayjw https://ello.co/dredmorbius/post/_bi5uhywbdyukhfy-eayjw
  - jelliclesfarm 7y ago
    our resources are limited. We have crossed carrying capacity 2 centuries ago. The world population has doubled in the past 50 years. I would hazard a guess that 4 billion is bearable. Optimal would be 2 billion.

icebraining 7y ago

> much less biodiversity, more pollution There's not more pollution, it just seems so because it's more concentrated. The pollution per capita in major US cities is quite a bit lower than the US average. Similarly, there's plenty of biodiversity in the spaces that people are leaving free by spreading less.

jelliclesfarm 7y ago

I agree with you, but I think people should still live densely but surrounded by combined acreage that not only staves climate change but also makes cities sustainable. The reason why the PTB oversell high density is because of high paying jobs and high property taxes. Funny..in CA, only Bay Area has a high density general plan. Not Visalia or Healdsburg. Because high density has nothing to do with sustainability. It only promises sustainability for the care and feeding of public sector employees who are guaranteed a pension and are racking up unfunded pension liabilities in CA. A 400k home in Visalia with 3 acres gets much less property tax than a 1500 sq ft 1.5 million dollar condo in Bay Area. So it is ok to stress the Bay Area resources. None of the services are cheaper. We are not gaining economies of scale due to the high density. What gives? As we automate and find alternative renewable energy(the only solution is nuclear), two things will happen..UBI and sustainability. From my POV, clusters of high density townships(Dunbar number is a good community head count) surrounded by enough land for sustainable closed loop systems networked and interconnected to other small townships to form a large townships and large townships clustered to network etc. This fractal design would ensure that cities are decentralized and yet the veins exist. A good example is Paris. The city’s design of Paris with its snail shape is close ..but there are other issues, but from city design perspective, it is a good functioning example. The problem with achieving sustainability goal is government. Edited to add: also..schools are another example. After California instituted the general plan to build more, all tax monies went into a single pot and redistributed https://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/fd/ec/documents/currentexpense1718.xlsx https://www.cde.ca.gov/ds/fd/ec/documents/currentexpense1718... Higher density areas get less money per student and lower density get more. But you can buy more in Oroville than in Berkeley. Or the value of a dollar is less in Berkeley than in Oroville. So people in high density areas.. usually highly educated with smaller family sizes and paying more taxes get less out of the public education system. This is to say that California should have get equal opportunity for education regardless of economic status. Because in a strange world of progressive politics in California, a school in Bay Area doesn’t have a proper swimming pool or PT equip and AP classes are cancelled because of anorexic school budget. But a blue collar town in Southern California has new buildings and smaller class sizes. It’s just bizarro world.