6 ms·

IMO, the single most important thing I've ever learned is: try to be effective when you're communicating. I used to feel an obligation to correct other people

IMO, the single most important thing I've ever learned is: try to be effective when you're communicating. I used to feel an obligation to correct other people if they had false beliefs. This was not an endearing trait, and even worse, I was never particularly successful at convincing the other people. One day, I read a passage from "How to make friends and influence people". It said something along the lines of: "The point of an argument is to convince the other person of something. If what you're doing is not working, then do something else." BAM I'm not perfect, but these days, I try to listen a lot and speak a little. And the little I do speak is designed to appeal, as much as possible, to my audience. As a small bonus: I really try not to get drawn into arguments with people who just like to argue (instead of those arguing in good faith). "OK" is an amazing response to shut those kinds of interactions down in a hurry. You can't out box the heavy bag.

humanrebar 7y ago
> The point of an argument is to convince the other person of something. If what you're doing is not working, then do something else. That's not the point of most arguments. Most arguments have an audience, and often that audience is also involved in making choices. If neither your opponent nor your audience is swayed, yeah, you could just be entrenching everyone in an oppositional attitude. That being said, discussions are typically better than arguments when that is an option.
OGWhales 7y ago
My dad gave me very similar advice growing up, as I love for things to be factually correct. To me, it didn't bother me if someone corrected me. However, most people don't appreciate it and it isn't worth upsetting them 90% of the time. This is something I didn't understand. Another thing he told me was not to be a know it all. One example would be when people said something and I had learned before, instead of diminishing their statement by saying I knew that, I should say something like "wow that's cool" as it makes the person feel better. He gave me lots of small little interaction tips that helped me come across as a better person even though none of them were nefarious in nature.
- roganartu 7y ago
  > Another thing he told me was not to be a know it all. One example would be when people said something and I had learned before, instead of diminishing their statement by saying I knew that, I should say something like "wow that's cool" as it makes the person feel better. Taking this a step further, if you know the topic well you can instead say something like "I know, it's very cool isn't it? Did you also know that <related factoid>". Delivery is important of course, with the "I know" part needing to be energetic and supportive, but I've found this approach to be an effective way to build rapport and it has lead to some really interesting discussions.
  - OGWhales 7y ago
    Spot on! I was terrible at making it seem like I wasn't just trying to one-up them or seem smarter when I was little. Delivery is so important.
  - F_J_H 7y ago
    I now drop the "I know" and go with something like "so cool that you brought that up - I was just reading about it last week!"
- nordsieck 7y ago
  > when people said something and I had learned before, instead of diminishing their statement by saying I knew that, I should say something like "wow that's cool" as it makes the person feel better. That's really great. I'll have to pick that up. Sounds like your dad was/is a pretty smart guy.
  - OGWhales 7y ago
    He is. Today is actually his birthday, funnily enough :) I would get super annoyed at his doing that when I was a kid and felt that he was hard on me for no reason, but man do I really appreciate that now. I still have lots to learn from that man.
- Zelphyr 7y ago
defertoreptar 7y ago
> And the little I do speak is designed to appeal, as much as possible, to my audience. "How to Win Friends and Influence People" really helped me understand where I was running into problems when interacting with people. It was written mainly for those who are in sales and need to learn how to persuade, but I've found it overall helpful in my career (not sales). It's one of the three books I would recommend for those who either manage people or are customer-facing (the others being "Nonviolent Communication" and "Carrots and Sticks Don't Work"). That said, I don't really observe the book's dogma in my personal life. To an extent, it has basic advice that's good no matter what. On the other hand, carefully speaking to make someone like you and to persuade them can be awfully inauthentic. I've learned to be careful about being rude or pedantic, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy a good argument. I like it when I disagree with people. I like to dig down into it with them to uncover the truth. I like to share the truth that I know with others, and I really like it when someone helps me discover a truth I didn't know before, changing the way I see things. Unfortunately that means that, while I try to avoid it (without sacrificing authenticity), I will be perceived as unlikable to some. This tends to be people who hate confrontation, those who are maybe a bit insecure about their beliefs, and those who tend toward valuing what the group thinks opposed to what the individual thinks.
- nordsieck 7y ago
  > I like it when I disagree with people. I like to dig down into it with them to uncover the truth. I like to share the truth that I know with others, and I really like it when someone helps me discover a truth I didn't know before, changing the way I see things. I like this too. But I've found that it's basically a disaster in real life. Very few people are educated, and even those who are have enough sacred goats that real serious conversations about difficult topics are near impossible. I find that, instead, consuming the best books and videos is far more rewarding. You can expose yourself to the best version of ideas with less effort than trying to squeeze it out of people you meet.
  - jschwartzi 7y ago
    I think it's important in communication to understand the people you're meeting in your life. The people around us makes up the society we live in, and understanding how we disagree with them helps us see what we want to change and also where we're wrong. Whereas just trying to absorb one author's idea of how the world works ignores those pieces of society and knowledge that the author lacks. To me it's more rewarding to know that I may not agree with everything everyone says all the time, but at least we can find our common ground and share our disagreements with each other to reach an understanding.
Minor49er 7y ago
To add onto this, learning how to use communicative tools better is huge. I have seriously enhanced my productivity and understanding of my work by learning how to manage my inbox, write and respond to tickets, and share information via effective Confluence posts.
ghostbrainalpha 7y ago
I agree with everything you said, and love the boxing reference at the end. Anecdote... one of the proudest moments in my life was when I finally did outbox the heavy bag. I put a hole in the side where I my left hooks to the body hit. It probably took me 10 years to make that hole, and even though I needed to buy a new bag. I can't make myself throw away the old one.
- nordsieck 7y ago
  > one of the proudest moments in my life was when I finally did outbox the heavy bag. I put a hole in the side where I my left hooks to the body hit. It probably took me 10 years to make that hole, and even though I needed to buy a new bag. I can't make myself throw away the old one. Not going to lie: that's pretty badass!
opportune 7y ago
I understand that this is effective, but I don’t understand people’s motivations for doing this unless it is explicitly required to do their job (management, sales). I would rather be thought of by some people (almost always people who I don’t like anyway) as an asshole than become a sycophant. Although I agree that argument for its own sake is not worth it
- BeetleB 7y ago
  Strange. Plenty of my coworkers are neither assholes nor sycophants. I'll pick them over the other two any day.
- heyoni 7y ago
  I mean, even arguing for arguments sake can be a great way to sharpen your views.
Reedx 7y ago
Yeah, it also helps to frequently remind yourself of the times you thought you were entirely correct, only to later discover you were completely wrong. It happens to everyone, many times throughout our lives. Though we tend to forget them. Another thing that I've found helpful is to adopt a frame of mind where you don't want to be wrong for a moment longer than necessary. Therefore open to being incorrect, and would rather be corrected than continue being wrong. When your model has been updated, view it as a positive. Steelman instead of strawman. Seek the strongest opposition to your idea. It can be hard to do, but worth trying as much as possible.
siavosh 7y ago
Following this advice can single handedly avoid so many negative things in all of our lives. The older I get I keep coming back to this lesson. For humanity to keep progressing we can't keep treating people as computers and expect them to accept some statement we believe in. We're fluid sacks of chemicals, the farthest thing from an objective computer. Effective communication must begin with that. Also somewhat related: “Never miss a good chance to shut up.” - Will Rogers

humanrebar 7y ago

> The point of an argument is to convince the other person of something. If what you're doing is not working, then do something else. That's not the point of most arguments. Most arguments have an audience, and often that audience is also involved in making choices. If neither your opponent nor your audience is swayed, yeah, you could just be entrenching everyone in an oppositional attitude. That being said, discussions are typically better than arguments when that is an option.

OGWhales 7y ago

My dad gave me very similar advice growing up, as I love for things to be factually correct. To me, it didn't bother me if someone corrected me. However, most people don't appreciate it and it isn't worth upsetting them 90% of the time. This is something I didn't understand. Another thing he told me was not to be a know it all. One example would be when people said something and I had learned before, instead of diminishing their statement by saying I knew that, I should say something like "wow that's cool" as it makes the person feel better. He gave me lots of small little interaction tips that helped me come across as a better person even though none of them were nefarious in nature.

roganartu 7y ago
> Another thing he told me was not to be a know it all. One example would be when people said something and I had learned before, instead of diminishing their statement by saying I knew that, I should say something like "wow that's cool" as it makes the person feel better. Taking this a step further, if you know the topic well you can instead say something like "I know, it's very cool isn't it? Did you also know that <related factoid>". Delivery is important of course, with the "I know" part needing to be energetic and supportive, but I've found this approach to be an effective way to build rapport and it has lead to some really interesting discussions.
- OGWhales 7y ago
  Spot on! I was terrible at making it seem like I wasn't just trying to one-up them or seem smarter when I was little. Delivery is so important.
- F_J_H 7y ago
  I now drop the "I know" and go with something like "so cool that you brought that up - I was just reading about it last week!"
nordsieck 7y ago
> when people said something and I had learned before, instead of diminishing their statement by saying I knew that, I should say something like "wow that's cool" as it makes the person feel better. That's really great. I'll have to pick that up. Sounds like your dad was/is a pretty smart guy.
- OGWhales 7y ago
  He is. Today is actually his birthday, funnily enough :) I would get super annoyed at his doing that when I was a kid and felt that he was hard on me for no reason, but man do I really appreciate that now. I still have lots to learn from that man.
Zelphyr 7y ago

defertoreptar 7y ago

> And the little I do speak is designed to appeal, as much as possible, to my audience. "How to Win Friends and Influence People" really helped me understand where I was running into problems when interacting with people. It was written mainly for those who are in sales and need to learn how to persuade, but I've found it overall helpful in my career (not sales). It's one of the three books I would recommend for those who either manage people or are customer-facing (the others being "Nonviolent Communication" and "Carrots and Sticks Don't Work"). That said, I don't really observe the book's dogma in my personal life. To an extent, it has basic advice that's good no matter what. On the other hand, carefully speaking to make someone like you and to persuade them can be awfully inauthentic. I've learned to be careful about being rude or pedantic, but I'd be lying if I said I didn't enjoy a good argument. I like it when I disagree with people. I like to dig down into it with them to uncover the truth. I like to share the truth that I know with others, and I really like it when someone helps me discover a truth I didn't know before, changing the way I see things. Unfortunately that means that, while I try to avoid it (without sacrificing authenticity), I will be perceived as unlikable to some. This tends to be people who hate confrontation, those who are maybe a bit insecure about their beliefs, and those who tend toward valuing what the group thinks opposed to what the individual thinks.

nordsieck 7y ago
> I like it when I disagree with people. I like to dig down into it with them to uncover the truth. I like to share the truth that I know with others, and I really like it when someone helps me discover a truth I didn't know before, changing the way I see things. I like this too. But I've found that it's basically a disaster in real life. Very few people are educated, and even those who are have enough sacred goats that real serious conversations about difficult topics are near impossible. I find that, instead, consuming the best books and videos is far more rewarding. You can expose yourself to the best version of ideas with less effort than trying to squeeze it out of people you meet.
- jschwartzi 7y ago
  I think it's important in communication to understand the people you're meeting in your life. The people around us makes up the society we live in, and understanding how we disagree with them helps us see what we want to change and also where we're wrong. Whereas just trying to absorb one author's idea of how the world works ignores those pieces of society and knowledge that the author lacks. To me it's more rewarding to know that I may not agree with everything everyone says all the time, but at least we can find our common ground and share our disagreements with each other to reach an understanding.

Minor49er 7y ago

To add onto this, learning how to use communicative tools better is huge. I have seriously enhanced my productivity and understanding of my work by learning how to manage my inbox, write and respond to tickets, and share information via effective Confluence posts.

ghostbrainalpha 7y ago

I agree with everything you said, and love the boxing reference at the end. Anecdote... one of the proudest moments in my life was when I finally did outbox the heavy bag. I put a hole in the side where I my left hooks to the body hit. It probably took me 10 years to make that hole, and even though I needed to buy a new bag. I can't make myself throw away the old one.

nordsieck 7y ago
> one of the proudest moments in my life was when I finally did outbox the heavy bag. I put a hole in the side where I my left hooks to the body hit. It probably took me 10 years to make that hole, and even though I needed to buy a new bag. I can't make myself throw away the old one. Not going to lie: that's pretty badass!

opportune 7y ago

I understand that this is effective, but I don’t understand people’s motivations for doing this unless it is explicitly required to do their job (management, sales). I would rather be thought of by some people (almost always people who I don’t like anyway) as an asshole than become a sycophant. Although I agree that argument for its own sake is not worth it

BeetleB 7y ago
Strange. Plenty of my coworkers are neither assholes nor sycophants. I'll pick them over the other two any day.
heyoni 7y ago
I mean, even arguing for arguments sake can be a great way to sharpen your views.

Reedx 7y ago

Yeah, it also helps to frequently remind yourself of the times you thought you were entirely correct, only to later discover you were completely wrong. It happens to everyone, many times throughout our lives. Though we tend to forget them. Another thing that I've found helpful is to adopt a frame of mind where you don't want to be wrong for a moment longer than necessary. Therefore open to being incorrect, and would rather be corrected than continue being wrong. When your model has been updated, view it as a positive. Steelman instead of strawman. Seek the strongest opposition to your idea. It can be hard to do, but worth trying as much as possible.

siavosh 7y ago

Following this advice can single handedly avoid so many negative things in all of our lives. The older I get I keep coming back to this lesson. For humanity to keep progressing we can't keep treating people as computers and expect them to accept some statement we believe in. We're fluid sacks of chemicals, the farthest thing from an objective computer. Effective communication must begin with that. Also somewhat related: “Never miss a good chance to shut up.” - Will Rogers