10 ms·

By your argument Pokemon is also a non deterministic game

by qazpot 7y ago

rictic 7y ago
Pokemon is highly nondeterministic. To take just one example, there are many moves which probabalistically induce game-changing status effects on the enemy.
- Retric 7y ago
  This is exploitably incorrect. It seems that way to players but tool assisted Pokemon speed runs regularly use luck manipulation. https://glitchcity.info/wiki/Luck_manipulation https://glitchcity.info/wiki/Luck_manipulation Games have had really bad prng’s for preformance reasons and gamers have been exploiting them for years. The most extreme example is probably Doom’s which was simply a hard coded list of numbers. https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator
  - djur 7y ago
    Luck manipulation is only possible in more recent entries by exploiting game-external factors like the system clock. But, in any case, when it comes to comparing games implemented in software (like Pokemon) with games that aren't, you have to distinguish between "the game" and "the software". The Pokemon game is designed to be non-deterministic from the player's perspective, regardless of the fact that the Pokemon software may be deterministic in some detectable or manipulable way. Just like craps would still be a game of chance even if you figure out how to fix your rolls.
    - Retric 7y ago
      So in your mind actual Pokémon games are deterministic, but the platonic ideal for Pokémon is not. Why would you assume the real Pokémon game was your mental model? I mean the software implementation defines the game and it’s the only thing anyone has ever played. It seems to me any change you make results in a different game. It’s not like a game allowing pawns to move 3 spaces can be called Chess even if everything else was the same.
      - lonelappde 7y ago
        The point is that nothing is random, even pure games of chance, if you have enough physical data about the rng. Humans playing Pokemon on a standard device cannot manipulate luck.
        Retric 7y ago
        Actually humans can exploit the prng on for example Generation III Pokemon. It takes frame perfect timing, which limits how long you can do so, but it is possible at the start of the game. This really falls into the same category as speed running using save game glitch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHTK5GLOFVM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHTK5GLOFVM aka possible but only really useful if you’re trying to do something very specific. Anyway, while I understand you assume this stuff to be impossible I simply suggest you do some research before bringing it up.
  - rictic 7y ago
    True, and fair point! Randomness is a matter of perspective. For any source of randomness there exists an oracle, and in some cases you can actually construct the oracle, and profit thereby.

By your argument Pokemon is also a non deterministic game

by qazpot 7y ago

By your argument Pokemon is also a non deterministic game

Pokemon is highly nondeterministic. To take just one example, there are many moves which probabalistically induce game-changing status effects on the enemy.

Retric 7y ago
This is exploitably incorrect. It seems that way to players but tool assisted Pokemon speed runs regularly use luck manipulation. https://glitchcity.info/wiki/Luck_manipulation https://glitchcity.info/wiki/Luck_manipulation Games have had really bad prng’s for preformance reasons and gamers have been exploiting them for years. The most extreme example is probably Doom’s which was simply a hard coded list of numbers. https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator https://doom.fandom.com/wiki/Pseudorandom_number_generator
- djur 7y ago
  Luck manipulation is only possible in more recent entries by exploiting game-external factors like the system clock. But, in any case, when it comes to comparing games implemented in software (like Pokemon) with games that aren't, you have to distinguish between "the game" and "the software". The Pokemon game is designed to be non-deterministic from the player's perspective, regardless of the fact that the Pokemon software may be deterministic in some detectable or manipulable way. Just like craps would still be a game of chance even if you figure out how to fix your rolls.
  - Retric 7y ago
    So in your mind actual Pokémon games are deterministic, but the platonic ideal for Pokémon is not. Why would you assume the real Pokémon game was your mental model? I mean the software implementation defines the game and it’s the only thing anyone has ever played. It seems to me any change you make results in a different game. It’s not like a game allowing pawns to move 3 spaces can be called Chess even if everything else was the same.
    - lonelappde 7y ago
      The point is that nothing is random, even pure games of chance, if you have enough physical data about the rng. Humans playing Pokemon on a standard device cannot manipulate luck.
      - Retric 7y ago
        Actually humans can exploit the prng on for example Generation III Pokemon. It takes frame perfect timing, which limits how long you can do so, but it is possible at the start of the game. This really falls into the same category as speed running using save game glitch: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHTK5GLOFVM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHTK5GLOFVM aka possible but only really useful if you’re trying to do something very specific. Anyway, while I understand you assume this stuff to be impossible I simply suggest you do some research before bringing it up.
- rictic 7y ago
  True, and fair point! Randomness is a matter of perspective. For any source of randomness there exists an oracle, and in some cases you can actually construct the oracle, and profit thereby.