5 ms·

In another article about Ghosn, it stated that in Japan there's a 99% conviction rate. That is scary.

braythwayt 7y ago
If we read the same article, it suggested that Britain’s conviction rate was around 87%^H^H^H 80%. (Hat tip to peteretep for the updated figure).
- kkshmz 7y ago
  In anyway, it seems like a corrupt or wronged system. Being a Japanese born and living here, it seems very different in terms of what e-Gov tech practices can do over here than in similar regards in the US like Palantir, etc. Would be great if there was some resources to pave this kind of path, hell, we still use FAX and our IT ministry hasn't used a USB before.
- peteretep 7y ago
  80% in the UK vs 99% in Japan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate
  - dmix 7y ago
    Most criminal defence attorneys will admit that the most of the people they work with are guilty. It’s just how the police and justice system works when you get caught and what cases go forward. But 99% will always be insane and a giant red flashing light indicator of something is wrong. At least 5-10% of people get off on technical details the police or prosecutors messed up or just good lawyering of guilty people. The rest the cases fall apart before trial because of witnesses or other evidence and turns of events. (I’m pulling these numbers out of my ass just to make a point). The problems in Japan are with the due process and a serious lack of rights of the accused. Even if we completely ignore the conviction rates.
    - peteretep 7y ago
      I’ve read a competing theory of Japan which says prosecutors are so over-worked they only go through with cases they know they’ll win. I wonder how one would decide? In the UK, the CPS only prosecute cases with “a reasonable chance of conviction”, which I guess means they essentially choose the conviction rate they’re aiming for?
      - dmix 7y ago
        That sounds like the same bullshit line that the FISA courts give their 99%+ approval rating for domestic surveillance warrants. We saw how that works in practice recently with that FBI report where the judges were basically yes men trusting everything the FBI told them without even basic scrutiny... The Japanese system is more on the input end regarding due process and rights to counsel.
      - breatheoften 7y ago
        I think it’s impossible to decide which of two criminal justice systems is “better” knowing only the conviction rate of both. Asking people to do this or placing them in a position where they are likely to is asking them to commit to finding flawed reasoning to support their own biases — and probably has an enhancing effect on those biases.
- mytailorisrich 7y ago
  In general there are hoops to go through before ending in front of a court: Police must gather enough evidence against someone. This means that the police and prosecution services think the someone is likely guilty based on evidence before someone is prosecuted. It is therefore expected that conviction rates should be relatively high whether in the UK or Japan. However, 99% really looks like rubber stamping a decision that was already made by the police... and that's a red flag.
deleted 7y ago
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mc32 7y ago
That's a bit misleading. Prosecutors drop or misclassify things when they are unlikely to get a conviction. for example, murders can be classified as "accidents" or "suicides", and so forth.
- S_A_P 7y ago
  I can see that, but knowing a bit about human nature and how Nissan was a bit salty over the Renault partnership and how they wanted him out I don't think he stood much chance. I dont know if he is guilty or not, but I don't blame him for getting out of there.
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rossdavidh 7y ago
They have an imprisonment rate that is 1/15th that of the U.S.A., though, so that could be that they don't prosecute unless they're really certain they will win. U.S. prosecutors go after a lot more people. https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america
alexis_fr 7y ago
99% conviction rate, and 23-day detention without charges. One can imagine the various ways to torture people with no lasting marks in 23 days, including the « cold room » (soaking someone in freezing water in the aircon, which made Michael P Fay accuse himself in Singapore in 1995). The thing that I didn’t know is, it is apparently renewable in Ghosn’s case without charges, then converted to half a year of detention.

If we read the same article, it suggested that Britain’s conviction rate was around 87%^H^H^H 80%. (Hat tip to peteretep for the updated figure).

kkshmz 7y ago
In anyway, it seems like a corrupt or wronged system. Being a Japanese born and living here, it seems very different in terms of what e-Gov tech practices can do over here than in similar regards in the US like Palantir, etc. Would be great if there was some resources to pave this kind of path, hell, we still use FAX and our IT ministry hasn't used a USB before.
peteretep 7y ago
80% in the UK vs 99% in Japan https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conviction_rate
- dmix 7y ago
  Most criminal defence attorneys will admit that the most of the people they work with are guilty. It’s just how the police and justice system works when you get caught and what cases go forward. But 99% will always be insane and a giant red flashing light indicator of something is wrong. At least 5-10% of people get off on technical details the police or prosecutors messed up or just good lawyering of guilty people. The rest the cases fall apart before trial because of witnesses or other evidence and turns of events. (I’m pulling these numbers out of my ass just to make a point). The problems in Japan are with the due process and a serious lack of rights of the accused. Even if we completely ignore the conviction rates.
  - peteretep 7y ago
    I’ve read a competing theory of Japan which says prosecutors are so over-worked they only go through with cases they know they’ll win. I wonder how one would decide? In the UK, the CPS only prosecute cases with “a reasonable chance of conviction”, which I guess means they essentially choose the conviction rate they’re aiming for?
    - dmix 7y ago
      That sounds like the same bullshit line that the FISA courts give their 99%+ approval rating for domestic surveillance warrants. We saw how that works in practice recently with that FBI report where the judges were basically yes men trusting everything the FBI told them without even basic scrutiny... The Japanese system is more on the input end regarding due process and rights to counsel.
    - breatheoften 7y ago
      I think it’s impossible to decide which of two criminal justice systems is “better” knowing only the conviction rate of both. Asking people to do this or placing them in a position where they are likely to is asking them to commit to finding flawed reasoning to support their own biases — and probably has an enhancing effect on those biases.
mytailorisrich 7y ago
In general there are hoops to go through before ending in front of a court: Police must gather enough evidence against someone. This means that the police and prosecution services think the someone is likely guilty based on evidence before someone is prosecuted. It is therefore expected that conviction rates should be relatively high whether in the UK or Japan. However, 99% really looks like rubber stamping a decision that was already made by the police... and that's a red flag.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

mc32 7y ago

That's a bit misleading. Prosecutors drop or misclassify things when they are unlikely to get a conviction. for example, murders can be classified as "accidents" or "suicides", and so forth.

S_A_P 7y ago
I can see that, but knowing a bit about human nature and how Nissan was a bit salty over the Renault partnership and how they wanted him out I don't think he stood much chance. I dont know if he is guilty or not, but I don't blame him for getting out of there.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

rossdavidh 7y ago

They have an imprisonment rate that is 1/15th that of the U.S.A., though, so that could be that they don't prosecute unless they're really certain they will win. U.S. prosecutors go after a lot more people. https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america https://www.prisonstudies.org/country/united-states-america

alexis_fr 7y ago

99% conviction rate, and 23-day detention without charges. One can imagine the various ways to torture people with no lasting marks in 23 days, including the « cold room » (soaking someone in freezing water in the aircon, which made Michael P Fay accuse himself in Singapore in 1995). The thing that I didn’t know is, it is apparently renewable in Ghosn’s case without charges, then converted to half a year of detention.