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It is amazing that in this day and age, instructions from the ATC are still spoken, not texted. (Does anyone here know if the ATC computer keeps track of the ta

by wdrw 7y ago

It is amazing that in this day and age, instructions from the ATC are still spoken, not texted. (Does anyone here know if the ATC computer keeps track of the target flight level, heading, etc? If so, these instructions could probably be texted at a push of a button in addition to the spoken words. The aircraft's avionics could then be smart and alert the pilots if they're doing something different.)

AdrianB1 7y ago
Well, it is not amazing at all, as a pilot most of the time I am looking out and over the instruments, not reading texts. Even the cockpit scan is just a scan, not enough to read more than a number at a time. The radio is at a press of the finger on the stick, typing back and forth is not. Also talking is much faster than typing.
- wdrw 7y ago
  You could still duplicate the verbal instruction in a (computer-readable) text, and then have an automated alert for any deviation from the texted instructions. Also, on big commercial flights with multiple pilots, could one of the pilots have more time to verify texted information? (I thought I heard something about a communicator/navigator role). And doesn't the ATC controller already have to type in the information into the ATC computer? I'm suggesting an automated message, not literally a human typing a text.
  - AdrianB1 7y ago
    There were in the past roles for a navigator and even a mechanic on board of airliners, but they were removed a long time ago. Now all the work is done by the 2 people in the cockpit and there is plenty for both in the take off, approach and landing phases. I am not even sure where to put just another display in the cockpit that is already overcrowded. Or two displays, one for each station. Maybe it can be squeezed, but the efficiency may be zero or negative. Just imagine a plane is far more complicated than a car, having hundreds or instruments, gauges, buttons and lights. Even learning how to use all these takes tens of hours, adding more you can create an nightmare from a bad situation. LE. There may be some solution, especially for modern digital cockpits, but there are hundreds of thousands of planes without a digital cockpit and with no way to upgrade them - they are not computers with standard interconnects like PCI, USB, COM and LPT ports, most smaller planes don't even have a standard cockpit layout and set of instruments. For example I piloted a few small planes of the same make and model, there were no two alike in the cockpit equipment.
    - cjbprime 7y ago
      I think IFR clearance is already displayed as texts in the cockpit? https://www.aviationtoday.com/2014/12/01/tcpdlc-transitioning-to-controller-pilot-data-link-communications/ https://www.aviationtoday.com/2014/12/01/tcpdlc-transitionin...
      - andrewg 7y ago
        Clearance can be sent via ACARS, but you deal with it while parked on the ground. It would be much different getting messages to change altitude, heading, and/or speed every few seconds that have to be acted upon immediately while executing an approach.
    - schoen 7y ago
      What did the onboard mechanics do? Just help assess and understand the mechanical condition of the airplane?
      - AdrianB1 7y ago
        Not really sure about that, a distant family member was a mechanic onboard AN-24 plane and was killed in a crash in 1995; I never met him personally, just his widow, I never had the chance to ask him questions about his job.
- joncrane 7y ago
  Talking is faster than typing, but reading is MUCH faster than talking/listening.
  - domlebo70 7y ago
    I wonder if hotkeying textual radio commands would give a good experience.
    - sangnoir 7y ago
      This would make it impossible to fight the yoke of your Boeing Max 8 and communicate with ATC at the same time.
      - domlebo70 7y ago
        Hahaha true
  - Piskvorrr 7y ago
    ...iff that's the only thing on your hands. From the essentials (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate), this comes last.
bronco21016 7y ago
Slowly but surely the system is moving towards an additional layer of communication using text. The system is CPDLC. The major issue with using it exclusively is that anything outside of ordinary canned messages takes time to type and that’s often exactly the time you do not have time. Go back to the Miracle on the Hudson. Their radio transmissions are very brief and concise because they are extremely busy in the cockpit. They definitely didn’t have time to fiddle with a tiny keyboard to transmit all of that information. I think text is going to be a very important layer in the future but it will never completely replace voice transmissions.
- tpmx 7y ago
  So what's needed is a hybrid voice/text system. Preferably languge-agnostic on the text/data part. Text for the 99.9% normal things, voice for the 0.1%. After listening to ATC recordings between e.g. JFK and Air China pilots I have no idea how major accidents don't happen every week.
  - __s 7y ago
    For reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NDqZy4deDI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NDqZy4deDI Transmitting text from ATC would also be able to have checksums which are then played by an automated voice. Pilots would become accustomed to the automated voice, as opposed to varying accents Regardless, if you think "I have no idea how major accidents don't happen every week" then it's likely because you don't recognize how much what you're referencing is an outlier, or you're disregarding what else mitigates issues
    - tpmx 7y ago
      Thanks for finding a link to that infamous recording. I think a hybrid scheme could work well. Transmit data in text, greetings via voice. Make sure to do the greetings every time, just to make sure people are used to using voice, for when the emergencies happen. > Regardless, if you think "I have no idea how major accidents don't happen every week" then it's likely because you don't recognize how much what you're referencing is an outlier, or you're disregarding what else mitigates issues You do realize you are commenting on a story that's about.. exactly that?
closeparen 7y ago
Voice has a really strong advantage for coordinating complex tasks: it keeps your hands and eyes on the work itself.

by wdrw 7y ago

AdrianB1 7y ago

Well, it is not amazing at all, as a pilot most of the time I am looking out and over the instruments, not reading texts. Even the cockpit scan is just a scan, not enough to read more than a number at a time. The radio is at a press of the finger on the stick, typing back and forth is not. Also talking is much faster than typing.

wdrw 7y ago
You could still duplicate the verbal instruction in a (computer-readable) text, and then have an automated alert for any deviation from the texted instructions. Also, on big commercial flights with multiple pilots, could one of the pilots have more time to verify texted information? (I thought I heard something about a communicator/navigator role). And doesn't the ATC controller already have to type in the information into the ATC computer? I'm suggesting an automated message, not literally a human typing a text.
- AdrianB1 7y ago
  There were in the past roles for a navigator and even a mechanic on board of airliners, but they were removed a long time ago. Now all the work is done by the 2 people in the cockpit and there is plenty for both in the take off, approach and landing phases. I am not even sure where to put just another display in the cockpit that is already overcrowded. Or two displays, one for each station. Maybe it can be squeezed, but the efficiency may be zero or negative. Just imagine a plane is far more complicated than a car, having hundreds or instruments, gauges, buttons and lights. Even learning how to use all these takes tens of hours, adding more you can create an nightmare from a bad situation. LE. There may be some solution, especially for modern digital cockpits, but there are hundreds of thousands of planes without a digital cockpit and with no way to upgrade them - they are not computers with standard interconnects like PCI, USB, COM and LPT ports, most smaller planes don't even have a standard cockpit layout and set of instruments. For example I piloted a few small planes of the same make and model, there were no two alike in the cockpit equipment.
  - cjbprime 7y ago
    I think IFR clearance is already displayed as texts in the cockpit? https://www.aviationtoday.com/2014/12/01/tcpdlc-transitioning-to-controller-pilot-data-link-communications/ https://www.aviationtoday.com/2014/12/01/tcpdlc-transitionin...
    - andrewg 7y ago
      Clearance can be sent via ACARS, but you deal with it while parked on the ground. It would be much different getting messages to change altitude, heading, and/or speed every few seconds that have to be acted upon immediately while executing an approach.
  - schoen 7y ago
    What did the onboard mechanics do? Just help assess and understand the mechanical condition of the airplane?
    - AdrianB1 7y ago
      Not really sure about that, a distant family member was a mechanic onboard AN-24 plane and was killed in a crash in 1995; I never met him personally, just his widow, I never had the chance to ask him questions about his job.
joncrane 7y ago
Talking is faster than typing, but reading is MUCH faster than talking/listening.
- domlebo70 7y ago
  I wonder if hotkeying textual radio commands would give a good experience.
  - sangnoir 7y ago
    This would make it impossible to fight the yoke of your Boeing Max 8 and communicate with ATC at the same time.
    - domlebo70 7y ago
      Hahaha true
- Piskvorrr 7y ago
  ...iff that's the only thing on your hands. From the essentials (Aviate, Navigate, Communicate), this comes last.

bronco21016 7y ago

Slowly but surely the system is moving towards an additional layer of communication using text. The system is CPDLC. The major issue with using it exclusively is that anything outside of ordinary canned messages takes time to type and that’s often exactly the time you do not have time. Go back to the Miracle on the Hudson. Their radio transmissions are very brief and concise because they are extremely busy in the cockpit. They definitely didn’t have time to fiddle with a tiny keyboard to transmit all of that information. I think text is going to be a very important layer in the future but it will never completely replace voice transmissions.

tpmx 7y ago
So what's needed is a hybrid voice/text system. Preferably languge-agnostic on the text/data part. Text for the 99.9% normal things, voice for the 0.1%. After listening to ATC recordings between e.g. JFK and Air China pilots I have no idea how major accidents don't happen every week.
- __s 7y ago
  For reference: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NDqZy4deDI https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NDqZy4deDI Transmitting text from ATC would also be able to have checksums which are then played by an automated voice. Pilots would become accustomed to the automated voice, as opposed to varying accents Regardless, if you think "I have no idea how major accidents don't happen every week" then it's likely because you don't recognize how much what you're referencing is an outlier, or you're disregarding what else mitigates issues
  - tpmx 7y ago
    Thanks for finding a link to that infamous recording. I think a hybrid scheme could work well. Transmit data in text, greetings via voice. Make sure to do the greetings every time, just to make sure people are used to using voice, for when the emergencies happen. > Regardless, if you think "I have no idea how major accidents don't happen every week" then it's likely because you don't recognize how much what you're referencing is an outlier, or you're disregarding what else mitigates issues You do realize you are commenting on a story that's about.. exactly that?

closeparen 7y ago

Voice has a really strong advantage for coordinating complex tasks: it keeps your hands and eyes on the work itself.