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> Like I said I’m not heavily invested in this argument but separated lanes aren’t a panacea As mentioned, separated bike lines are way safer. Pedestrians won'

by bkor 7y ago

> Like I said I’m not heavily invested in this argument but separated lanes aren’t a panacea As mentioned, separated bike lines are way safer. Pedestrians won't suddenly step on bike lanes if you actually mark them properly and consistently, plus apply a height difference. Obviously there's exceptions to this but "right of way" goes in hand with "mistakes happen". Meaning, anticipate on what might happen. I cycle every day to work. There's something weird every single day. Sometimes a car, sometimes another bicycle, sometimes a pedestrian. I live in The Netherlands btw, and those shared roads are _way_ more dangerous. What's way more likely is that the separated bike path was implemented in name, but missed out on the several bits that Netherlands has standard that other countries IMO completely mess up.

Symbiote 7y ago
> other countries IMO completely mess up That looks to be the issue here. For the segregated cycle paths in Copenhagen, "legally, the minimum width is 1.7 metres"[1]. That cycle path on Adelaide Street, Toronto looks to be about as wide as the tram tracks (1.4m), but about ⅓ of it is wasted with rough asphalt at the edge, and for something like 80% of its length it's just paint, with the remaining 20% using poles and planters. There are also regular manholes. One in Copenhagen [2] has a kerb most of the way, and is wider. It's still worse around the junctions than the standard design in the Netherlands [3] (somewhere in Rotterdam). (Note that both of these are typical, I clicked once on the map on a likely-looking medium-sized road.) dmix praises Montreal, which looks to be approaching the Danish or Dutch quality, although still has a way to go -- there are gaps in the lanes, and they sometimes go traffic-side past parked cars. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_Copenhagen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_Copenhagen [2] https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6830112,12.5481995,3a,75y,295.22h,87.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-manrWCSaz-mu4DgQdLQAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6830112,12.5481995,3a,75y,29... [3] https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9381892,4.5402326,3a,75y,267.77h,85.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sF582I8ObZzxRc1knQeXiWQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9381892,4.5402326,3a,75y,267...
mumblemumble 7y ago
I've only spent a few days of my life in the Netherlands, but my impression was that the secret ingredient that the Netherlands has and other places don't is nothing visible like infrastructure. It's that everyone generally understands how the system is supposed to work. I don't know if that's because of culture or formal education, but, in any case, it was really noteworthy. The etiquette was so clearly and consistently being followed by everyone that, even as a visitor, I was able to understand it well enough to not be in anyone's way (I think) within just an hour or two. I mentioned way up above that I tend to avoid protected bike lanes in my city because pedestrians just walk into them without notice. The lanes in question do have a height difference. But, as far as I can tell, pedestrians aren't seeing the curb that separates the sidewalk from the bike lane and thinking, "Oh, the sidewalk ends here." They're looking a little bit further over, to the curb that separates the part of the street that's for cars from the part of the street that's for bikes, and thinking, "Oh, the street begins over there."

by bkor 7y ago

Symbiote 7y ago

> other countries IMO completely mess up That looks to be the issue here. For the segregated cycle paths in Copenhagen, "legally, the minimum width is 1.7 metres"[1]. That cycle path on Adelaide Street, Toronto looks to be about as wide as the tram tracks (1.4m), but about ⅓ of it is wasted with rough asphalt at the edge, and for something like 80% of its length it's just paint, with the remaining 20% using poles and planters. There are also regular manholes. One in Copenhagen [2] has a kerb most of the way, and is wider. It's still worse around the junctions than the standard design in the Netherlands [3] (somewhere in Rotterdam). (Note that both of these are typical, I clicked once on the map on a likely-looking medium-sized road.) dmix praises Montreal, which looks to be approaching the Danish or Dutch quality, although still has a way to go -- there are gaps in the lanes, and they sometimes go traffic-side past parked cars. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_Copenhagen https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cycling_in_Copenhagen [2] https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6830112,12.5481995,3a,75y,295.22h,87.98t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1s-manrWCSaz-mu4DgQdLQAw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@55.6830112,12.5481995,3a,75y,29... [3] https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9381892,4.5402326,3a,75y,267.77h,85.81t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sF582I8ObZzxRc1knQeXiWQ!2e0!7i13312!8i6656 https://www.google.com/maps/@51.9381892,4.5402326,3a,75y,267...

mumblemumble 7y ago

I've only spent a few days of my life in the Netherlands, but my impression was that the secret ingredient that the Netherlands has and other places don't is nothing visible like infrastructure. It's that everyone generally understands how the system is supposed to work. I don't know if that's because of culture or formal education, but, in any case, it was really noteworthy. The etiquette was so clearly and consistently being followed by everyone that, even as a visitor, I was able to understand it well enough to not be in anyone's way (I think) within just an hour or two. I mentioned way up above that I tend to avoid protected bike lanes in my city because pedestrians just walk into them without notice. The lanes in question do have a height difference. But, as far as I can tell, pedestrians aren't seeing the curb that separates the sidewalk from the bike lane and thinking, "Oh, the sidewalk ends here." They're looking a little bit further over, to the curb that separates the part of the street that's for cars from the part of the street that's for bikes, and thinking, "Oh, the street begins over there."