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> Furthermore, many routes chosen are often potentially not very pleasant for the cyclist And how. I've found that my preferred routes don't just differ from w

> Furthermore, many routes chosen are often potentially not very pleasant for the cyclist And how. I've found that my preferred routes don't just differ from what Google Maps might suggest, they also tend to avoid all the places that my city thought might be a good place for a posted bike lane. The bike lanes are all on noisy, busy streets that aren't pleasant to ride on, and the bike lanes themselves are often full of delivery trucks and rideshare drivers. I choose a bicycle as my primary mode of transportation specifically because I dislike all the noise and rush and stress that automobiles represent, facilitate and encourage. I've already decided to take 5 minutes longer to get where I'm going for the sake of having a more pleasant life, I can spare another 5 minutes in order to have an even more pleasant life. Worst case scenario, it still beats anything Peloton wants to sell me.

crooked-v 7y ago
> and the bike lanes themselves are often full of delivery trucks and rideshare drivers This is part of why separated bike lanes are so important.
- mumblemumble 7y ago
  Lately I've been avoiding them, too, because pedestrians - especially kids - have a habit of stepping into them without warning. I've come to prefer non-thoroughfare streets where it's understood that bikes get to use the road, too. There, the only thing I have to worry about is rideshare drivers and Waze people thinking that blasting through residential areas at 40mph is their birthright, but, fortunately, my city has recently started getting more proactive about installing traffic-calming features into the roads, and that kind of behavior seems to be on the decline.
  - edaemon 7y ago
    Portland does something like this. Small streets that run parallel to large thoroughfares are designated as "neighborhood greenways", and have various traffic calming measures put in place. SE Clinton is a pretty good example: https://goo.gl/maps/bnra2rsMCekcB3YA6 https://goo.gl/maps/bnra2rsMCekcB3YA6
  - bkor 7y ago
    > Lately I've been avoiding them, too, because pedestrians - especially kids - have a habit of stepping into them without warning. Paint bicycle paths in red consistently, plus ensure there's a height difference (a step down from a pedestrian path, then another small section that's higher before you reach e.g. cars). Basically what's being done in The Netherlands. Do ignore Amsterdam experiences though, the city centre there is not a good example.
- scrumbledober 7y ago
  they separated the bike lane in front of my previous office on 2nd street in SF. This did not stop rideshare drivers from pulling over through the parking spaces into the bike lane, effectively completely blocking me off with parked cars on my right on several occasions. I only worked there for a few months after the separated bike lane was put in so maybe drivers are figuring it out now but it was definitely not helpful while i was riding it. In addition they painted the entire bike lane solid green, which certainly helped visibility of the bike lane (was that a problem?) but also made it incredibly slick. the stop light at the bottom of the hill had an absurd amount of 10+ foot skid marks from people trying to stop on the slick surface.
  - edaemon 7y ago
    A separated bike lane is supposed to have a physical barrier; SF's 2nd street bike lane was just a "buffered" bike lane, which means there's just some extra space between motor traffic and the bike lane. Poking around it seems like the city may have recently added some safe-hit posts to improve it a little bit.
  - crooked-v 7y ago
    By 'separated' I mean bike lanes like in the Netherlands, where there's a good two feet of elevated curb between the road and the bike lane.
    - maxerickson 7y ago
      I'm sure it was a relatively freak occurrence, but in the 2 weeks I spent in the Netherlands, I almost got killed by a vehicle that used a separated bike lane to pass. They were traveling in the opposite direction as me and I had to move over into the curb area as we passed each other, or they would have run into me head on at 40 kph.
- dmix 7y ago
  Separated bike lanes means you cant move out of the way quickly when there are slow newbie bikers (Ive had two accidents because of bikers like this who swerve unpredictably as a natural course of biking), pedestrians crossing over them, or garbage, or w/e in the way. I avoid them at any point where high speed is possible and Ive never seen a car complain because I know how to ride with traffic without slowing them down. In my view separated bike lanes are for casuals, not serious commuters. I'd much prefer sharrows and marked mixed lanes personally. Just visual reminders to drivers to share the road is designate our area is sufficient IMO.
  - Symbiote 7y ago
    You are perhaps cycling more for sport than transport. Cycling infrastructure needs to be usable for the majority of people (age 6 to 86, fit, fat, bicycle, tricycle etc). Segregated lanes in Denmark and the Netherlands work fine. Those using a bicycle for energetic exercise will choose quiet places and times, just like car drivers who want to drive fast can't use city streets.
    - dmix 7y ago
      No I commuted for years, I live close enough to walk to work now so I’m less invested in this debate these days. But I just think the marked lanes and sharrows are a good enough compromise for the serious commuters and the casuals. I’m not an expert nor closer to the mean of the typical rider (I build my own bikes, ride fast but safe, like a bike messenger without the suicide wish) so I try not to get all holy about this. I should also note I find Toronto’s more plentiful marked lanes to be pretty good but I avoid the separated one on Adelaide. it’s much improved over past years.
      - tga_d 7y ago
        >But I just think the marked lanes and sharrows are a good enough compromise for the serious commuters and the casuals. There have been several studies that show sharrows don't actually help, and in some cases even hinder, bike safety. E.g., https://trid.trb.org/view/1393928 https://trid.trb.org/view/1393928 https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/40917 https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/40917 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2046043018300583 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S204604301...
- markvdb 7y ago
  There are more ways to prevent motorised traffic from using the bike lanes. Ample communication, warnings and fines come to mind. Police patrols actually cycling around the city can do wonders for that.
bobthepanda 7y ago
> The bike lanes are all on noisy, busy streets that aren't pleasant to ride on Usually they get put there because of it; a quiet residential street doesn't need nearly as much intervention to be good for cycling, so they don't really bother with it. The other thing is that, particularly in non-gridded cities, the roads are noisy and busy because they are often the most direct, flat route from A to B. Finally, these thoroughfares are usually the safest places to cross other, similar thoroughfares. Less busy roads will have lower priorities at crossings, which can mean no traffic lights giving you guaranteed passage to cross, or even physical blockers in the median preventing you from crossing as well.
- gumby 7y ago
  I don’t know: Palo Alto has “bike boulevards” which are residential streets but - have nonstop signs (all stop signs are on the cross streets) and dead ends (for cars, not bikes or pedestrians) every few blocks. Really makes them worth taking.
  - gibolt 7y ago
    I use these all the time and wish more cities would do it. One downside is that the cross streets usually have cars just rolling through the stop signs with no attention paid to the possiblity of an oncoming cyclist. Maybe adding a bike indicator on all the stop signs would be a partial solution. Parking a bike anywhere still sucks, even in a city that provides such well labeled lanes.
    - ianai 7y ago
      “Maybe adding a bike indicator on all the stop signs would be a partial solution.” Doubtful. Motorists tend to be strongly apathetic to anyone but themselves. Probably a red light that’s capable of spotting a cyclist and timing a crossing would be a blue sky solution.
- bkor 7y ago
  > Usually they get put there because of it; a quiet residential street doesn't need nearly as much intervention to be good for cycling, so they don't really bother with it. In my view (I'm Dutch), every road and intersection needs to be built with pedestrians and cyclists in mind. You might even consider another mode, as electric bikes and similar can be quite a bit quicker than bikes, but slower than cars. Alternatively, let's say everything is built for pedestrians and cyclists. Then cars just have to "make do" and only in busy roads you make it safe for everyone. That's considered crazy but exactly the case in many countries for both pedestrians and cyclists. Easy example: try walking a few blocks in various cities. How long do you have to wait for traffic lights? Now try the same in The Netherlands. The wait in other countries is often insane (1-2 minutes).
sideshowb 7y ago
I have worked on this - I used to simulate motorized traffic to use as a deterrent to cycling routes but the latest iteration just proxies this using road class http://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-55669-8 http://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-55669-8 Google street view would be such a rich mine for data on route pleasantness, unfortunately google don't like people mining it. A current gap in the market, by the way, would be routing for e-bikes. In the UK the power assistance is legally limited to 25km/h which means it actually makes sense to take hillier routes so you can climb using power assistance then descend fast under gravity alone. Not seen a router which can do that yet!
- efrecon 7y ago
  Routing for e-bikes ? I second this!
- iicc 7y ago
  https://brouter.de/brouter/ https://brouter.de/brouter/ allows custom routing profiles, and can factor in elevation.
- karussell 7y ago
  There is mapillary that allows this for OSM
7952 7y ago
In the UK council cycle paths seem to target the town centre, often a trains station and then run to the edge of the town. This is ok if you want to go to the town centre, but bad if you want to go anywhere else. The town centre is full of cars on tiny roads and other hazards. I think cycle paths should be focused on running around the edge of urban areas in a ring. This would facilitate many more commuter journeys and help people avoid the centre. Cyclists would naturally use the quieter roads to access the ring.

crooked-v 7y ago

> and the bike lanes themselves are often full of delivery trucks and rideshare drivers This is part of why separated bike lanes are so important.

mumblemumble 7y ago
Lately I've been avoiding them, too, because pedestrians - especially kids - have a habit of stepping into them without warning. I've come to prefer non-thoroughfare streets where it's understood that bikes get to use the road, too. There, the only thing I have to worry about is rideshare drivers and Waze people thinking that blasting through residential areas at 40mph is their birthright, but, fortunately, my city has recently started getting more proactive about installing traffic-calming features into the roads, and that kind of behavior seems to be on the decline.
- edaemon 7y ago
  Portland does something like this. Small streets that run parallel to large thoroughfares are designated as "neighborhood greenways", and have various traffic calming measures put in place. SE Clinton is a pretty good example: https://goo.gl/maps/bnra2rsMCekcB3YA6 https://goo.gl/maps/bnra2rsMCekcB3YA6
- bkor 7y ago
  > Lately I've been avoiding them, too, because pedestrians - especially kids - have a habit of stepping into them without warning. Paint bicycle paths in red consistently, plus ensure there's a height difference (a step down from a pedestrian path, then another small section that's higher before you reach e.g. cars). Basically what's being done in The Netherlands. Do ignore Amsterdam experiences though, the city centre there is not a good example.
scrumbledober 7y ago
they separated the bike lane in front of my previous office on 2nd street in SF. This did not stop rideshare drivers from pulling over through the parking spaces into the bike lane, effectively completely blocking me off with parked cars on my right on several occasions. I only worked there for a few months after the separated bike lane was put in so maybe drivers are figuring it out now but it was definitely not helpful while i was riding it. In addition they painted the entire bike lane solid green, which certainly helped visibility of the bike lane (was that a problem?) but also made it incredibly slick. the stop light at the bottom of the hill had an absurd amount of 10+ foot skid marks from people trying to stop on the slick surface.
- edaemon 7y ago
  A separated bike lane is supposed to have a physical barrier; SF's 2nd street bike lane was just a "buffered" bike lane, which means there's just some extra space between motor traffic and the bike lane. Poking around it seems like the city may have recently added some safe-hit posts to improve it a little bit.
- crooked-v 7y ago
  By 'separated' I mean bike lanes like in the Netherlands, where there's a good two feet of elevated curb between the road and the bike lane.
  - maxerickson 7y ago
    I'm sure it was a relatively freak occurrence, but in the 2 weeks I spent in the Netherlands, I almost got killed by a vehicle that used a separated bike lane to pass. They were traveling in the opposite direction as me and I had to move over into the curb area as we passed each other, or they would have run into me head on at 40 kph.
dmix 7y ago
Separated bike lanes means you cant move out of the way quickly when there are slow newbie bikers (Ive had two accidents because of bikers like this who swerve unpredictably as a natural course of biking), pedestrians crossing over them, or garbage, or w/e in the way. I avoid them at any point where high speed is possible and Ive never seen a car complain because I know how to ride with traffic without slowing them down. In my view separated bike lanes are for casuals, not serious commuters. I'd much prefer sharrows and marked mixed lanes personally. Just visual reminders to drivers to share the road is designate our area is sufficient IMO.
- Symbiote 7y ago
  You are perhaps cycling more for sport than transport. Cycling infrastructure needs to be usable for the majority of people (age 6 to 86, fit, fat, bicycle, tricycle etc). Segregated lanes in Denmark and the Netherlands work fine. Those using a bicycle for energetic exercise will choose quiet places and times, just like car drivers who want to drive fast can't use city streets.
  - dmix 7y ago
    No I commuted for years, I live close enough to walk to work now so I’m less invested in this debate these days. But I just think the marked lanes and sharrows are a good enough compromise for the serious commuters and the casuals. I’m not an expert nor closer to the mean of the typical rider (I build my own bikes, ride fast but safe, like a bike messenger without the suicide wish) so I try not to get all holy about this. I should also note I find Toronto’s more plentiful marked lanes to be pretty good but I avoid the separated one on Adelaide. it’s much improved over past years.
    - tga_d 7y ago
      >But I just think the marked lanes and sharrows are a good enough compromise for the serious commuters and the casuals. There have been several studies that show sharrows don't actually help, and in some cases even hinder, bike safety. E.g., https://trid.trb.org/view/1393928 https://trid.trb.org/view/1393928 https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/40917 https://rosap.ntl.bts.gov/view/dot/40917 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S2046043018300583 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S204604301...
markvdb 7y ago
There are more ways to prevent motorised traffic from using the bike lanes. Ample communication, warnings and fines come to mind. Police patrols actually cycling around the city can do wonders for that.

bobthepanda 7y ago

> The bike lanes are all on noisy, busy streets that aren't pleasant to ride on Usually they get put there because of it; a quiet residential street doesn't need nearly as much intervention to be good for cycling, so they don't really bother with it. The other thing is that, particularly in non-gridded cities, the roads are noisy and busy because they are often the most direct, flat route from A to B. Finally, these thoroughfares are usually the safest places to cross other, similar thoroughfares. Less busy roads will have lower priorities at crossings, which can mean no traffic lights giving you guaranteed passage to cross, or even physical blockers in the median preventing you from crossing as well.

gumby 7y ago
I don’t know: Palo Alto has “bike boulevards” which are residential streets but - have nonstop signs (all stop signs are on the cross streets) and dead ends (for cars, not bikes or pedestrians) every few blocks. Really makes them worth taking.
- gibolt 7y ago
  I use these all the time and wish more cities would do it. One downside is that the cross streets usually have cars just rolling through the stop signs with no attention paid to the possiblity of an oncoming cyclist. Maybe adding a bike indicator on all the stop signs would be a partial solution. Parking a bike anywhere still sucks, even in a city that provides such well labeled lanes.
  - ianai 7y ago
    “Maybe adding a bike indicator on all the stop signs would be a partial solution.” Doubtful. Motorists tend to be strongly apathetic to anyone but themselves. Probably a red light that’s capable of spotting a cyclist and timing a crossing would be a blue sky solution.
bkor 7y ago
> Usually they get put there because of it; a quiet residential street doesn't need nearly as much intervention to be good for cycling, so they don't really bother with it. In my view (I'm Dutch), every road and intersection needs to be built with pedestrians and cyclists in mind. You might even consider another mode, as electric bikes and similar can be quite a bit quicker than bikes, but slower than cars. Alternatively, let's say everything is built for pedestrians and cyclists. Then cars just have to "make do" and only in busy roads you make it safe for everyone. That's considered crazy but exactly the case in many countries for both pedestrians and cyclists. Easy example: try walking a few blocks in various cities. How long do you have to wait for traffic lights? Now try the same in The Netherlands. The wait in other countries is often insane (1-2 minutes).

sideshowb 7y ago

I have worked on this - I used to simulate motorized traffic to use as a deterrent to cycling routes but the latest iteration just proxies this using road class http://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-55669-8 http://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-019-55669-8 Google street view would be such a rich mine for data on route pleasantness, unfortunately google don't like people mining it. A current gap in the market, by the way, would be routing for e-bikes. In the UK the power assistance is legally limited to 25km/h which means it actually makes sense to take hillier routes so you can climb using power assistance then descend fast under gravity alone. Not seen a router which can do that yet!

efrecon 7y ago
Routing for e-bikes ? I second this!
iicc 7y ago
https://brouter.de/brouter/ https://brouter.de/brouter/ allows custom routing profiles, and can factor in elevation.
karussell 7y ago
There is mapillary that allows this for OSM

7952 7y ago

In the UK council cycle paths seem to target the town centre, often a trains station and then run to the edge of the town. This is ok if you want to go to the town centre, but bad if you want to go anywhere else. The town centre is full of cars on tiny roads and other hazards. I think cycle paths should be focused on running around the edge of urban areas in a ring. This would facilitate many more commuter journeys and help people avoid the centre. Cyclists would naturally use the quieter roads to access the ring.