5 ms·

One possibility is that some people are more reactive to blue light than others. For me, the blue light versus non-blue light difference is really striking. An

One possibility is that some people are more reactive to blue light than others. For me, the blue light versus non-blue light difference is really striking. Another issue is that, as others have noted, a lot of people's experiences are with Flux, but Flux is an incomplete solution to the blue light problem. I use a Macbook Air: Flux changes the color temperature of my screen, but directly below my screen is a backlit keyboard which is very, very blue. It was a big turning point for my sleep health when I got a pair of blue light blocking glasses which handled this in addition to the screen blue light.

soapboxrocket 7y ago
Did you get the glasses because you believed they would help your sleep, or for other reasons? One solution to why so many people talk about the improvements with Flux or glasses could be a simple placebo affect.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  I got the glasses because I hoped they would help my sleep--I'm not sure I would say I believed they would. I totally agree that it may be the placebo effect. However, I feel that it's important to note in discussions of the placebo effect that it's fairly irrelevant whether an intervention works because of the placebo effect or some other reason--what matters is whether the intervention works. And this one does, at least for me.
  - tsimionescu 7y ago
    If an intervention only 'works' because of the placebo effect, than that intervention doesn't actually work and there is no reason for someone else to use it. If my sleep is improved by listening to death metal with the volume set to high, then good for me and I can continue doing it, but you probably shouldn't copy me, and may explain to people that they probably shouldn't buy my 10$ death metal sleeping app. Note: I'm not accusing you of trying to sell something, I hope my comment doesn't come up that way.
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      On the contrary: if it works it works. Just because it's a placebo doesn't mean it only works for one person. The only reason we know that the placebo effect exists because we can show in multiple studies that certain placebos work on a lot of people. In fact, some placebos work better than other placebos[1]. Of course, there are pitfalls. It's important that doctors not lie to their patients, because patients need to trust their doctors, and patients need to be able to make informed choices. And as you pointed out, it's obviously wrong to sell a placebo as if it were not a placebo. But even this doesn't mean placebos are useless: some placebos work even when you know they are placebos[2]. There are many cases where placebo performs better than nothing, and it would be foolish to not use this effect to improve our lives. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3729687/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3729687/ [2] https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-even-know-placebo-201607079926 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-even-kn...
      - tsimionescu 7y ago
        From what I've read, the placebo effect is still mysterious, and the only place where it is consistently found to help is in pain perception. Outside of this, there are some studies which show improvements in placebo when compared to no treatment, but other studies ([1][2][3]) find no improvement or only perceived improvement - e.g. the patient feels that they slept better, but in fact they slept the same amount and it took them just as long to get to sleep. So, overall, it's not clear whether the placebo effect is a real effect that placebos have on patient health, or whether it is an artifact in the data, e.g. due to reporting errors, especially in studies which are not double blind (where the researcher may be biased themselves in the way they are collecting the data). There are also many studies which compare an active substance to a placebo treatment but have no data about patient response under no treatment, which is itself not necessarily 0 [2]. Edit: added a [3] that is explicitly about insomnia - placebo was found to improve subjective perception of sleep quality, but not objective measures (sleep onset latency). [1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11372012 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11372012 [2]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3169222 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3169222 [3]https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1087079217300795 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10870...
- 34234lr 7y ago
  True, but placebo effect is random and uncorrelated with the change. Otherwise big pharma would just replace all drugs with sugar pills. So for placebo you should also have a lot of people reporting that "greenish screen" helps, and you should have a green option in flux.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    > True, but placebo effect is random and uncorrelated with the change. No, it's not. The definition of placebo effect is that a placebo works differently from not placebo. > Otherwise big pharma would just replace all drugs with sugar pills. No, because in many cases drugs work better than placebo.
  - soapboxrocket 7y ago
    As @kerkeslager states below, this is just not true. I think the best way to understand a placebo effect is this: If I don't give 100 patients a drug to cure a cough and 30% stop coughing, I have a baseline. If I give 100 patients a drug to cure a cough and 90% stop coughing I can say my drug is effective. If I give 100 patients a sugar pill and tell them it will cure a cough and 60% stop coughing I can say this is better than my baseline and the placebo effect is present. If I give 100 patients a sugar pill and tell them it will cure a sneeze and 60% stop coughing and nobody stops sneezing, then I need to revisit my previous study to find out if sugar can cure a cough. But in this case you don't have a placebo effect because the patients believed the pill was to address a sneeze.
maskros 7y ago
Wait a minute, are you saying that you can't switch off the keyboard backlight on MacBook Air?
- eclipxe 7y ago
  Of course you can.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  You can if you don't want to see your keys. To be honest, I've never tried--I always assumed that I'd want to be able to see the keys in order to place my hands before I touch-type. Maybe I'll give it a go.
  - maskros 7y ago
    I guess I'm too old and assume everyone knows how to touch type...
    - kerkeslager 7y ago
      I know how to touch-type. I don't know how to place my fingers on a keyboard I can't see.
      - nkurz 7y ago
        Do your keyboards not have small bumps on F and J key to help you find the correct positioning when you can't see the labels: https://www.industrytap.com/know-bump-f-j-keys-keyboard/35465 https://www.industrytap.com/know-bump-f-j-keys-keyboard/3546...? Maybe this is only on US keyboards?
        wruza 7y ago
        Some keyboards (stupid/fancy ones) may not have it, but regardless of layout.
        maskros 7y ago
MagnumPIG 7y ago
Any comparative study with a decent methodology would detect the problem of differing sensitivities per person (by checking the standard deviation among other things). The problem, as another comment points out, is that this study was done on mice. To me it removes all possibility of applying its conclusions to humans, because our sleeping habits don't seem similar at all.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  > Any comparative study with a decent methodology would detect the problem of differing sensitivities per person (by checking the standard deviation among other things). Could you say more on this?
internet_user 7y ago
your macbook cannot turn off the keyboard's backlight?

soapboxrocket 7y ago

Did you get the glasses because you believed they would help your sleep, or for other reasons? One solution to why so many people talk about the improvements with Flux or glasses could be a simple placebo affect.

kerkeslager 7y ago
I got the glasses because I hoped they would help my sleep--I'm not sure I would say I believed they would. I totally agree that it may be the placebo effect. However, I feel that it's important to note in discussions of the placebo effect that it's fairly irrelevant whether an intervention works because of the placebo effect or some other reason--what matters is whether the intervention works. And this one does, at least for me.
- tsimionescu 7y ago
  If an intervention only 'works' because of the placebo effect, than that intervention doesn't actually work and there is no reason for someone else to use it. If my sleep is improved by listening to death metal with the volume set to high, then good for me and I can continue doing it, but you probably shouldn't copy me, and may explain to people that they probably shouldn't buy my 10$ death metal sleeping app. Note: I'm not accusing you of trying to sell something, I hope my comment doesn't come up that way.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    On the contrary: if it works it works. Just because it's a placebo doesn't mean it only works for one person. The only reason we know that the placebo effect exists because we can show in multiple studies that certain placebos work on a lot of people. In fact, some placebos work better than other placebos[1]. Of course, there are pitfalls. It's important that doctors not lie to their patients, because patients need to trust their doctors, and patients need to be able to make informed choices. And as you pointed out, it's obviously wrong to sell a placebo as if it were not a placebo. But even this doesn't mean placebos are useless: some placebos work even when you know they are placebos[2]. There are many cases where placebo performs better than nothing, and it would be foolish to not use this effect to improve our lives. [1] https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3729687/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3729687/ [2] https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-even-know-placebo-201607079926 https://www.health.harvard.edu/blog/placebo-can-work-even-kn...
    - tsimionescu 7y ago
      From what I've read, the placebo effect is still mysterious, and the only place where it is consistently found to help is in pain perception. Outside of this, there are some studies which show improvements in placebo when compared to no treatment, but other studies ([1][2][3]) find no improvement or only perceived improvement - e.g. the patient feels that they slept better, but in fact they slept the same amount and it took them just as long to get to sleep. So, overall, it's not clear whether the placebo effect is a real effect that placebos have on patient health, or whether it is an artifact in the data, e.g. due to reporting errors, especially in studies which are not double blind (where the researcher may be biased themselves in the way they are collecting the data). There are also many studies which compare an active substance to a placebo treatment but have no data about patient response under no treatment, which is itself not necessarily 0 [2]. Edit: added a [3] that is explicitly about insomnia - placebo was found to improve subjective perception of sleep quality, but not objective measures (sleep onset latency). [1]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11372012 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11372012 [2]https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3169222 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/3169222 [3]https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1087079217300795 https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S10870...
34234lr 7y ago
True, but placebo effect is random and uncorrelated with the change. Otherwise big pharma would just replace all drugs with sugar pills. So for placebo you should also have a lot of people reporting that "greenish screen" helps, and you should have a green option in flux.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  > True, but placebo effect is random and uncorrelated with the change. No, it's not. The definition of placebo effect is that a placebo works differently from not placebo. > Otherwise big pharma would just replace all drugs with sugar pills. No, because in many cases drugs work better than placebo.
- soapboxrocket 7y ago
  As @kerkeslager states below, this is just not true. I think the best way to understand a placebo effect is this: If I don't give 100 patients a drug to cure a cough and 30% stop coughing, I have a baseline. If I give 100 patients a drug to cure a cough and 90% stop coughing I can say my drug is effective. If I give 100 patients a sugar pill and tell them it will cure a cough and 60% stop coughing I can say this is better than my baseline and the placebo effect is present. If I give 100 patients a sugar pill and tell them it will cure a sneeze and 60% stop coughing and nobody stops sneezing, then I need to revisit my previous study to find out if sugar can cure a cough. But in this case you don't have a placebo effect because the patients believed the pill was to address a sneeze.

maskros 7y ago

Wait a minute, are you saying that you can't switch off the keyboard backlight on MacBook Air?

eclipxe 7y ago
Of course you can.
kerkeslager 7y ago
You can if you don't want to see your keys. To be honest, I've never tried--I always assumed that I'd want to be able to see the keys in order to place my hands before I touch-type. Maybe I'll give it a go.
- maskros 7y ago
  I guess I'm too old and assume everyone knows how to touch type...
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    I know how to touch-type. I don't know how to place my fingers on a keyboard I can't see.
    - nkurz 7y ago
      Do your keyboards not have small bumps on F and J key to help you find the correct positioning when you can't see the labels: https://www.industrytap.com/know-bump-f-j-keys-keyboard/35465 https://www.industrytap.com/know-bump-f-j-keys-keyboard/3546...? Maybe this is only on US keyboards?
      - wruza 7y ago
        Some keyboards (stupid/fancy ones) may not have it, but regardless of layout.
      - maskros 7y ago

MagnumPIG 7y ago

Any comparative study with a decent methodology would detect the problem of differing sensitivities per person (by checking the standard deviation among other things). The problem, as another comment points out, is that this study was done on mice. To me it removes all possibility of applying its conclusions to humans, because our sleeping habits don't seem similar at all.

kerkeslager 7y ago
> Any comparative study with a decent methodology would detect the problem of differing sensitivities per person (by checking the standard deviation among other things). Could you say more on this?

internet_user 7y ago

your macbook cannot turn off the keyboard's backlight?