7 ms·

Software flaws in cars usually aren't fatal. If your car has a failure, you just pull over on the side of the road. You can't do that in an airplane. >how ab

by magduf 7y ago

Software flaws in cars usually aren't fatal. If your car has a failure, you just pull over on the side of the road. You can't do that in an airplane. >how about cars that have sudden loss of steering Citation needed. I've never heard of a car having this problem, and it's generally impossible because there's a mechanical link between the steering wheel and the front wheels. >or a throttle that can't be disengaged? Citation needed. I've never heard of this happening where it's been proven to be real and not a publicity stunt. All the problems with "unintended acceleration", including on Toyotas a while back, have been shown to either be people using aftermarket carpet mats, or even people faking it. What's more, turning off the car in an emergency is not hard, even in push-button-start cars. Now of course, we can blame some wrecks from faulty systems on poor driver training, drivers who just aren't very good, drivers who can't handle an emergency, etc. This simply does not apply in an airplane: pilots go through a LOT of training to get that job, so if they crash anyway, that points to an unforgivable mistake in engineering or manufacturing.

umvi 7y ago
> Citation needed. I've never heard of a car having this problem, and it's generally impossible because there's a mechanical link between the steering wheel and the front wheels. https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2018-09-13/gm-recalls-1-million-trucks-worldwide-over-power-steering-failure https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2018-09-1... https://www.ncconsumer.org/news-articles/ford-issues-recall-affecting-ford-fusion-and-lincoln-mkz-vehicles.html https://www.ncconsumer.org/news-articles/ford-issues-recall-...
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- asynchronous13 7y ago
  To be fair, "sudden loss of steering" is different than "sudden loss of power-assisted steering".
  - tialaramex 7y ago
    And it's actually comparable to the _intended_ failure mode of a 737 Max. If the system fails you can't let the computer control the trim, so there are manual trim wheels provided and you switch off electronic trim. Like the steering wheel of a large modern car, these wheels are mechanically connected to the thing you want to change but if you're feeble like me you'll struggle to even move them which is why the computer was in the loop. As I understand it large trucks existed prior to power-assist, they just hired big strong chaps who could wrestle the steering. We probably don't want (and Boeing doesn't want) to make 737 Max certification have a "Physical strength check" where you need to exert so-and-so much turning force for so-and-so many seconds or you can't fly their plane. So probably trim wheels need a re-think, whether that happens as part of the 737 Max work, its immediate aftermath or not for years because this incident scares manufacturers away from changing anything about trim. Seismic shifts in safety considerations do happen, we haven't seen the last of them. And they aren't always ultimately for the better. Titanic had a few effects, many of them really good, but one notable one is that it pushed the narrative that you need to provide and test a LOT of lifeboats on an ocean liner. Titanic, as you can probably all recite, did not have enough lifeboats. But in practice lifeboats are very much a last resort for an ocean liner captain. You've got a whole lot of civilians who are incompetent at sea at the best of times, probably panicking and now you're trying to successfully get them into smaller boats under supervision of a relatively smaller number of crew. Some of them are likely to be injured or even die. A ship's master would prefer _anything_ over putting passengers into lifeboats, except them all drowning. Almost always the sensible course of action, taken by the ship's master, will be to take the still working ship to any port and unload the passengers. Yes even if the ship is somewhat on fire, or has grave engine problems, almost anything except actually sinking right now. Meanwhile just owning the lifeboats means your crew have to keep testing them and servicing them, each time also has a chance of injury or death as crew fall into the water, boats fall on the crew, and so on. So owning a suite of lifeboats for your ocean liner (which you weren't planning to crash into an iceberg at any time) is probably a net negative in terms of injuries and deaths.
    - rightbyte 7y ago
      How about bogger trim wheels, or servo motors for those?
- tigershark 7y ago
  That is a loss of power steering, it’s not a loss of steering. You can still steer the car although it requires more strength at low speeds.
- magduf 7y ago
  That's not a loss of steering, that's a loss of power assist. You can still steer a vehicle just fine without power assist; you only need the assist at very low speeds.
- zaarn 7y ago
  I've driven a car with intermittent failure of power steering, it's not impossible and at higher speed, the wheel provide stablization on their own already.
bumby 7y ago
mechanical link between the steering wheel and the front wheels. Steer by wire is becoming much more common. It’s already in luxury cars and, like most features, will probably eventually trickle into economy car designs
- quicklyfrozen 7y ago
  It's not common at all. The Q50 had it for a while then reverted, and still had a manual link for backup. Beyond that, just some prototypes.
  - bumby 7y ago
    You’re right. I was conflating electrically powered steering with steer by wire. In either case, EPS relies on software to determine the amount of force/torque rather than hydraulic/mechanical means. I did see one source indicating a roughly 25% increase in steer by wire by 2026, but it’s behind a paywall so I’m not sure how good that source is. According to a Tesla forum, there’s still a mandate for mechanical linkage
    - magduf 7y ago
      EPS has been used in economy cars for years now; most cars on the market now probably have it. The few laggards that don't have EHPS (electro-hydraulic PS), where software runs a pump that pressurizes the hydraulic system. EPS has been on production cars now since the 1990s, and I've never heard of any software problems with those at all. In fact, it's probably been more reliable than hydraulic systems since it doesn't have so many moving parts, just an electric motor, and no hydraulic fluid to leak or get contaminated (due to not being replaced on time, a common thing for people to skip on maintenance). Steer-by-wire is a no-go for now, because it's illegal to not have a mechanical linkage. That might eventually change when we get driverless cars, but there's no sign that those are coming nearly as quickly as many people used to think; there's just too many problems with them.
      - bumby 7y ago
Johnny555 7y ago
Software flaws in cars usually aren't fatal. If your car has a failure, you just pull over on the side of the road. You can't do that in an airplane. Many modern cars have computer control of brakes, accelerator and even steering, so a software flaw could stop you in the opposing lane just as you start to pass a car, or accelerate and steer you into a bridge pillar (and since that car was already steering the car before that, the driver may not be able to react in time)
ngcc_hk 7y ago
My old Auto car did that quite a few times and another just stop in the middle of a highway. Car broke down especially old and cheap car.

by magduf 7y ago

umvi 7y ago

> Citation needed. I've never heard of a car having this problem, and it's generally impossible because there's a mechanical link between the steering wheel and the front wheels. https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2018-09-13/gm-recalls-1-million-trucks-worldwide-over-power-steering-failure https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2018-09-1... https://www.ncconsumer.org/news-articles/ford-issues-recall-affecting-ford-fusion-and-lincoln-mkz-vehicles.html https://www.ncconsumer.org/news-articles/ford-issues-recall-...

deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
asynchronous13 7y ago
To be fair, "sudden loss of steering" is different than "sudden loss of power-assisted steering".
- tialaramex 7y ago
  And it's actually comparable to the _intended_ failure mode of a 737 Max. If the system fails you can't let the computer control the trim, so there are manual trim wheels provided and you switch off electronic trim. Like the steering wheel of a large modern car, these wheels are mechanically connected to the thing you want to change but if you're feeble like me you'll struggle to even move them which is why the computer was in the loop. As I understand it large trucks existed prior to power-assist, they just hired big strong chaps who could wrestle the steering. We probably don't want (and Boeing doesn't want) to make 737 Max certification have a "Physical strength check" where you need to exert so-and-so much turning force for so-and-so many seconds or you can't fly their plane. So probably trim wheels need a re-think, whether that happens as part of the 737 Max work, its immediate aftermath or not for years because this incident scares manufacturers away from changing anything about trim. Seismic shifts in safety considerations do happen, we haven't seen the last of them. And they aren't always ultimately for the better. Titanic had a few effects, many of them really good, but one notable one is that it pushed the narrative that you need to provide and test a LOT of lifeboats on an ocean liner. Titanic, as you can probably all recite, did not have enough lifeboats. But in practice lifeboats are very much a last resort for an ocean liner captain. You've got a whole lot of civilians who are incompetent at sea at the best of times, probably panicking and now you're trying to successfully get them into smaller boats under supervision of a relatively smaller number of crew. Some of them are likely to be injured or even die. A ship's master would prefer _anything_ over putting passengers into lifeboats, except them all drowning. Almost always the sensible course of action, taken by the ship's master, will be to take the still working ship to any port and unload the passengers. Yes even if the ship is somewhat on fire, or has grave engine problems, almost anything except actually sinking right now. Meanwhile just owning the lifeboats means your crew have to keep testing them and servicing them, each time also has a chance of injury or death as crew fall into the water, boats fall on the crew, and so on. So owning a suite of lifeboats for your ocean liner (which you weren't planning to crash into an iceberg at any time) is probably a net negative in terms of injuries and deaths.
  - rightbyte 7y ago
    How about bogger trim wheels, or servo motors for those?
tigershark 7y ago
That is a loss of power steering, it’s not a loss of steering. You can still steer the car although it requires more strength at low speeds.
magduf 7y ago
That's not a loss of steering, that's a loss of power assist. You can still steer a vehicle just fine without power assist; you only need the assist at very low speeds.
zaarn 7y ago
I've driven a car with intermittent failure of power steering, it's not impossible and at higher speed, the wheel provide stablization on their own already.

bumby 7y ago

mechanical link between the steering wheel and the front wheels. Steer by wire is becoming much more common. It’s already in luxury cars and, like most features, will probably eventually trickle into economy car designs

quicklyfrozen 7y ago
It's not common at all. The Q50 had it for a while then reverted, and still had a manual link for backup. Beyond that, just some prototypes.
- bumby 7y ago
  You’re right. I was conflating electrically powered steering with steer by wire. In either case, EPS relies on software to determine the amount of force/torque rather than hydraulic/mechanical means. I did see one source indicating a roughly 25% increase in steer by wire by 2026, but it’s behind a paywall so I’m not sure how good that source is. According to a Tesla forum, there’s still a mandate for mechanical linkage
  - magduf 7y ago
    EPS has been used in economy cars for years now; most cars on the market now probably have it. The few laggards that don't have EHPS (electro-hydraulic PS), where software runs a pump that pressurizes the hydraulic system. EPS has been on production cars now since the 1990s, and I've never heard of any software problems with those at all. In fact, it's probably been more reliable than hydraulic systems since it doesn't have so many moving parts, just an electric motor, and no hydraulic fluid to leak or get contaminated (due to not being replaced on time, a common thing for people to skip on maintenance). Steer-by-wire is a no-go for now, because it's illegal to not have a mechanical linkage. That might eventually change when we get driverless cars, but there's no sign that those are coming nearly as quickly as many people used to think; there's just too many problems with them.
    - bumby 7y ago

Johnny555 7y ago

Software flaws in cars usually aren't fatal. If your car has a failure, you just pull over on the side of the road. You can't do that in an airplane. Many modern cars have computer control of brakes, accelerator and even steering, so a software flaw could stop you in the opposing lane just as you start to pass a car, or accelerate and steer you into a bridge pillar (and since that car was already steering the car before that, the driver may not be able to react in time)

ngcc_hk 7y ago

My old Auto car did that quite a few times and another just stop in the middle of a highway. Car broke down especially old and cheap car.