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>True, but I also know the Max has at least one serious design flaw. >I don’t know the same about my car In addition, there's no evidence that Airbus planes ha

by magduf 7y ago

>True, but I also know the Max has at least one serious design flaw. >I don’t know the same about my car In addition, there's no evidence that Airbus planes have design flaws as bad as MCAS. So why fly on a 737MAX when any other plane out there is safer?

kayfox 7y ago
There is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72 Edit: To be clear, while this was 10 years ago and noone died, this incident seems to me to be a bit worse than the issues with the 737 MAX in that with the A330, there is no shutting off the systems that caused this issue, as they are part of the flight controls. Fortunately the causes were investigated and while the exact cause of the issue was not identified, the computer systems were updated to deal the fault scenarios identified in the investigation.
- ahartmetz 7y ago
  That one was a case of electronic gremlins in one particular plane together with a quite particular edge case in the software, based on reasonable assumptions.
  - kayfox 7y ago
    Electronic gremlins that resulted in the temporary loss of flight control responsiveness. In a fly by wire aircraft.
mrep 7y ago
> So why fly on a 737MAX when any other plane out there is safer? Well no one can fly one right now as they are all grounded. However, once they get approval for a fix from all countries, the airplanes get updated with said fix, and the pilots get whatever training required for the fix and thus can start flying again, why not fly them? Presumably, that failure type should never happen again and its record seems fine outside of this 1 problem.
- magduf 7y ago
  >However, once they get approval for a fix from all countries That's a big assumption. The planes are already unmanageable, even if MCAS is fixed: human pilots aren't strong enough to turn the trim wheels manually in an emergency. >and the pilots get whatever training required for the fix I don't see how this is possible without forcing pilots to get a totally different type rating for this aircraft. That's the whole reason they put MCAS in there in the first place: to avoid a different type rating, which would require an expensive add-on certification.
  - mrep 7y ago
    Yes, the plane might require expensive training and expensive modifications. It may even have to get completely scrapped if the changes are deemed uneconomical to deploy. With all the different government agencies going to be manually inspecting the updated plane themselves, the MCAS problem is going to be put under a microscope by dozens of different countries and if they do approve it and deploy it, then I am going to take there word for it as having mitigated the MCAS problem and won't care about stepping on a 737 max as its track record outside of this 1 problem is fine. If it does not get approved or deployed, then who cares because you won't even have the option to fly it as it will stay grounded. Regardless of what happens, checking what plane I will be flying on will not impact my decision when choosing flights.
    - magduf 7y ago
      I think there's something here you're missing: What if it does get approved, but only by some countries? So, for instance, suppose the US approves it, but China and the EU don't? Then, it probably won't stay grounded, because this plane is usually used for shorter-distance travel. Southwest Airlines, for instance, exclusively uses 737-type aircraft, and all their travel is domestic US, so an EU ban wouldn't affect them at all. I for one wouldn't feel too confidant about the FAA approving this plane with the EU regulators refusing to, considering what a criminally-negligent job the FAA did in approving it in the first place.
  - EdiX 7y ago

by magduf 7y ago

kayfox 7y ago

There is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72 Edit: To be clear, while this was 10 years ago and noone died, this incident seems to me to be a bit worse than the issues with the 737 MAX in that with the A330, there is no shutting off the systems that caused this issue, as they are part of the flight controls. Fortunately the causes were investigated and while the exact cause of the issue was not identified, the computer systems were updated to deal the fault scenarios identified in the investigation.

ahartmetz 7y ago
That one was a case of electronic gremlins in one particular plane together with a quite particular edge case in the software, based on reasonable assumptions.
- kayfox 7y ago
  Electronic gremlins that resulted in the temporary loss of flight control responsiveness. In a fly by wire aircraft.

mrep 7y ago

> So why fly on a 737MAX when any other plane out there is safer? Well no one can fly one right now as they are all grounded. However, once they get approval for a fix from all countries, the airplanes get updated with said fix, and the pilots get whatever training required for the fix and thus can start flying again, why not fly them? Presumably, that failure type should never happen again and its record seems fine outside of this 1 problem.

magduf 7y ago
>However, once they get approval for a fix from all countries That's a big assumption. The planes are already unmanageable, even if MCAS is fixed: human pilots aren't strong enough to turn the trim wheels manually in an emergency. >and the pilots get whatever training required for the fix I don't see how this is possible without forcing pilots to get a totally different type rating for this aircraft. That's the whole reason they put MCAS in there in the first place: to avoid a different type rating, which would require an expensive add-on certification.
- mrep 7y ago
  Yes, the plane might require expensive training and expensive modifications. It may even have to get completely scrapped if the changes are deemed uneconomical to deploy. With all the different government agencies going to be manually inspecting the updated plane themselves, the MCAS problem is going to be put under a microscope by dozens of different countries and if they do approve it and deploy it, then I am going to take there word for it as having mitigated the MCAS problem and won't care about stepping on a 737 max as its track record outside of this 1 problem is fine. If it does not get approved or deployed, then who cares because you won't even have the option to fly it as it will stay grounded. Regardless of what happens, checking what plane I will be flying on will not impact my decision when choosing flights.
  - magduf 7y ago
    I think there's something here you're missing: What if it does get approved, but only by some countries? So, for instance, suppose the US approves it, but China and the EU don't? Then, it probably won't stay grounded, because this plane is usually used for shorter-distance travel. Southwest Airlines, for instance, exclusively uses 737-type aircraft, and all their travel is domestic US, so an EU ban wouldn't affect them at all. I for one wouldn't feel too confidant about the FAA approving this plane with the EU regulators refusing to, considering what a criminally-negligent job the FAA did in approving it in the first place.
- EdiX 7y ago