10 ms·

Do we really need to teach French to undergraduates that won't ever use it nor remember anything from these courses? My university also had a swimming requireme

Do we really need to teach French to undergraduates that won't ever use it nor remember anything from these courses? My university also had a swimming requirement. Seems like more than half of the courses were not terribly useful or mind opening. Certainly since something valuable isn't being produced, the pay for producing that will be low.

trianglem 7y ago
Yes, I believe a well rounded education is important for a good populace.
jimbob45 7y ago
We don't need to dance around the fact that swimming and French courses are just moneymakers for universities. Sure, they may hold some value to the careers of some people, but it's hard to believe that the motivation for foisting them upon each student was wholly altruistic.
- hindsightbias 7y ago
  With numbers like these, we should be foisting PE and nutrition on young adults: https://stateofchildhoodobesity.org/adult-obesity/ https://stateofchildhoodobesity.org/adult-obesity/
- tzs 7y ago
  How is a swimming course a moneymaker?
throwawayhhakdl 7y ago
FWIW, I feel like being able to fall in water without dying is a useful skill Though college sounds like an odd place
veilrap 7y ago
Honestly, I think both foreign language training, and physical fitness ARE useful for keeping one's mind plasticity up and in turn having valuable downstream effects. The goal for university courses shouldn't be strictly specific skill training, but also requirements that force people outside their comfort zones, encouraging them to think it new ways and adapt their problem solving faculties to new domains.
- coredog64 7y ago
  Foreign languages are harder to pick up the older you get. Starting one in college seems like a waste, and requiring it raises the bar unnecessarily. Physical fitness isn’t going to come from a swimming class. If you’re an adult, you’ll take care of your body because it’s the right thing.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - mumblemumble 7y ago
    > Foreign languages are harder to pick up the older you get. I don't buy that. I know plenty of people who've picked up languages all up and down the age range. What I do think is true is that people are more likely to pick up their first additional language at a younger age. And I think that that's probably just an result of selection bias: If you actually need to for some reason (e.g., one language spoken at home and another in public), then those conditions will apply more-or-less from birth, so you'll learn it at a young age. And if you enjoy language learning, then you'll probably figure that out at a fairly young age, and so you'll have learned your second language at a fairly young age. The people who're looking to learn their second language in their 30s or 40s, on the other hand, are likely to be less motivated in the first place, and therefore more likely to give up, or to be unwilling to put enough work into it to make consistent progress. There's also a sort of. . . I don't know if it's immortal time bias, but it's similar: You don't see as many people who learn a language at an older age exhibiting near-native levels of proficiency simply because the timeline doesn't work out that way. You just aren't going to be speaking like someone who's been using the language 16 hours a day for 20 years if you've only been using it 1 hour a day for 5 years. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is probably selling something with a subscription pricing scheme. I can also say, as a recreational language learner who is rapidly approaching middle age, that the real impediment to learning languages as you get older is not that you don't have a 6 year old's or teenager's brain anymore. It's that you have one or more 6 year olds or teenagers, and spending time with them is probably more fulfilling (or at least more important) than spending time with a pile of flashcards. Such is life. As far as the value of requiring them in university. . . Offer, yes, require, no. Not because 18 is too late to start learning a language, but because nobody who's only taking classes in a 2nd language because a few credits in such a class is required for graduation is going to get any real value out of the experience.
Pete-Codes 7y ago
I did Spanish at university and it's a skill I've got for life now.
- lonelappde 7y ago
  Only in uni? I and many others did Spanish for 6 years from junior high into college, and remember barely any of it. Foreign language perhaps more than other topics, schooling is nearly useless compared to immersion.
  - trianglem 7y ago
    I really feel like schools should concentrate on conversational language skills before delving into any sort of grammar rules. A lot of the grammar rules end up sorting themselves out by “not sounding correct” when you speak the language.
arethuza 7y ago
So why choose to go to a university that does have more general classes if that's not what you want? Certainly the course (and indeed the university) I went to had no classes outside maths/CS/electrical-engineering and I sometimes think it would have been nice to have a bit more rounded education at that level.
neuland 7y ago
I agree with your point; there’s a lot of stuff taught in school that has limited or no usefulness to the average person. But swimming is not one of those. Everyone needs to know how to swim. Granted, college is a bit late to do it. There’s a good chance in your lifetime that you may involuntarily end up in the water. Say your car crashes into a lake. You fall off a bridge or dock. Your ferry or duck boat sinks. Etc. Learning to swim doesn’t take a ton of time and may very well save your life. Also you’re missing out on a bunch of possible fun / rewarding water activities.
ng12 7y ago
If I could re-do my college degree I would have taken as few computer science courses as possible. Most of the important stuff I picked up along the way anyways. It's the random classes like Japanese Lit and Organizational Behavior that have really had an impact over a decade later.
- DamnYuppie 7y ago
  For me some of the most life impacting and eye opening courses were very random. My Islamic studies class was a view into another world and ignited my desire to travel. A child development course really drove home who we as adults are shaped by things that happened when we were very young and what impact and when parents have on their children.
yardie 7y ago
> Do we really need to teach French to undergraduates that won't ever use it... As most US universities and colleges currently teach? Certainly not. If we were to teach it as most language schools and most european universities teach it. Then, yes. It would be another skill. I took courses in Mandarin. While my spoken language is certainly rusty at this point it gave me an insight into East Asian history and culture that I would not have today.

trianglem 7y ago

Yes, I believe a well rounded education is important for a good populace.

jimbob45 7y ago

We don't need to dance around the fact that swimming and French courses are just moneymakers for universities. Sure, they may hold some value to the careers of some people, but it's hard to believe that the motivation for foisting them upon each student was wholly altruistic.

hindsightbias 7y ago
With numbers like these, we should be foisting PE and nutrition on young adults: https://stateofchildhoodobesity.org/adult-obesity/ https://stateofchildhoodobesity.org/adult-obesity/
tzs 7y ago
How is a swimming course a moneymaker?

throwawayhhakdl 7y ago

FWIW, I feel like being able to fall in water without dying is a useful skill Though college sounds like an odd place

veilrap 7y ago

Honestly, I think both foreign language training, and physical fitness ARE useful for keeping one's mind plasticity up and in turn having valuable downstream effects. The goal for university courses shouldn't be strictly specific skill training, but also requirements that force people outside their comfort zones, encouraging them to think it new ways and adapt their problem solving faculties to new domains.

coredog64 7y ago
Foreign languages are harder to pick up the older you get. Starting one in college seems like a waste, and requiring it raises the bar unnecessarily. Physical fitness isn’t going to come from a swimming class. If you’re an adult, you’ll take care of your body because it’s the right thing.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
- mumblemumble 7y ago
  > Foreign languages are harder to pick up the older you get. I don't buy that. I know plenty of people who've picked up languages all up and down the age range. What I do think is true is that people are more likely to pick up their first additional language at a younger age. And I think that that's probably just an result of selection bias: If you actually need to for some reason (e.g., one language spoken at home and another in public), then those conditions will apply more-or-less from birth, so you'll learn it at a young age. And if you enjoy language learning, then you'll probably figure that out at a fairly young age, and so you'll have learned your second language at a fairly young age. The people who're looking to learn their second language in their 30s or 40s, on the other hand, are likely to be less motivated in the first place, and therefore more likely to give up, or to be unwilling to put enough work into it to make consistent progress. There's also a sort of. . . I don't know if it's immortal time bias, but it's similar: You don't see as many people who learn a language at an older age exhibiting near-native levels of proficiency simply because the timeline doesn't work out that way. You just aren't going to be speaking like someone who's been using the language 16 hours a day for 20 years if you've only been using it 1 hour a day for 5 years. Anyone who tries to tell you otherwise is probably selling something with a subscription pricing scheme. I can also say, as a recreational language learner who is rapidly approaching middle age, that the real impediment to learning languages as you get older is not that you don't have a 6 year old's or teenager's brain anymore. It's that you have one or more 6 year olds or teenagers, and spending time with them is probably more fulfilling (or at least more important) than spending time with a pile of flashcards. Such is life. As far as the value of requiring them in university. . . Offer, yes, require, no. Not because 18 is too late to start learning a language, but because nobody who's only taking classes in a 2nd language because a few credits in such a class is required for graduation is going to get any real value out of the experience.

Pete-Codes 7y ago

I did Spanish at university and it's a skill I've got for life now.

lonelappde 7y ago
Only in uni? I and many others did Spanish for 6 years from junior high into college, and remember barely any of it. Foreign language perhaps more than other topics, schooling is nearly useless compared to immersion.
- trianglem 7y ago
  I really feel like schools should concentrate on conversational language skills before delving into any sort of grammar rules. A lot of the grammar rules end up sorting themselves out by “not sounding correct” when you speak the language.

arethuza 7y ago

So why choose to go to a university that does have more general classes if that's not what you want? Certainly the course (and indeed the university) I went to had no classes outside maths/CS/electrical-engineering and I sometimes think it would have been nice to have a bit more rounded education at that level.

neuland 7y ago

I agree with your point; there’s a lot of stuff taught in school that has limited or no usefulness to the average person. But swimming is not one of those. Everyone needs to know how to swim. Granted, college is a bit late to do it. There’s a good chance in your lifetime that you may involuntarily end up in the water. Say your car crashes into a lake. You fall off a bridge or dock. Your ferry or duck boat sinks. Etc. Learning to swim doesn’t take a ton of time and may very well save your life. Also you’re missing out on a bunch of possible fun / rewarding water activities.

ng12 7y ago

If I could re-do my college degree I would have taken as few computer science courses as possible. Most of the important stuff I picked up along the way anyways. It's the random classes like Japanese Lit and Organizational Behavior that have really had an impact over a decade later.

DamnYuppie 7y ago
For me some of the most life impacting and eye opening courses were very random. My Islamic studies class was a view into another world and ignited my desire to travel. A child development course really drove home who we as adults are shaped by things that happened when we were very young and what impact and when parents have on their children.

yardie 7y ago

> Do we really need to teach French to undergraduates that won't ever use it... As most US universities and colleges currently teach? Certainly not. If we were to teach it as most language schools and most european universities teach it. Then, yes. It would be another skill. I took courses in Mandarin. While my spoken language is certainly rusty at this point it gave me an insight into East Asian history and culture that I would not have today.