6 ms·

A piece of advice I would give to students: If you're applying to N universities, have your professors write recommendation letters to accompany applications t

A piece of advice I would give to students: If you're applying to N universities, have your professors write recommendation letters to accompany applications to N+1 universities (including a university that you're lying about wanting to apply to). Chances are, you'll get N+1 copies of the same letter in sealed envelopes. Open one. If you dislike what they write about you, throw them all in the trash and ask another professor. Why do I recommend such an unethical course of behaviour? Because some professors are just nice people who want nice things for their students and who will write nice things in letters of recommendations. And some professors will have a character deficiency that will make them feel better about themselves by writing mean things about other people. ...in each case, the "personality test" around the professor has nothing to do with you, so why should you suffer the consequences if you misjudged someone's character.

citizenkeen 7y ago
I have never and would never give a letter of recommendation directly to the person I'm writing it on behalf of. I've attended four universities, and all of them had the letters of recommendation addressed directly to them - I never got a copy of the letter.
- stakhanov 7y ago
  Really? I've always had them handed to me. If a professor refuses to hand you the sealed envelope, maybe that's the red flag right there. Even so: There's probably a way to game that system, too. (Handing them pre-addressed envelopes, and one of the addresses is a PO Box you own?) ...although you have to be careful, because at some point it presumably becomes mail fraud.
  - stakhanov 7y ago
    ...I should add, that I didn't do this myself, back in the day, because I was lacking in the worldly wisdom required to have this idea. But thinking back of it, I think it's probably what cost me admission to the places I would have most wanted to get into.
  - kerkeslager 7y ago
    > Really? I've always had them handed to me. If a professor refuses to hand you the sealed envelope, maybe that's the red flag right there. Sending it directly is the norm in my experience, and it's directly intended to avoid the "hack" you suggested. > Even so: There's probably a way to game that system, too. (Handing them pre-addressed envelopes, and one of the addresses is a PO Box you own?) ...although you have to be careful, because at some point it presumably becomes mail fraud. That would work for finding out after the fact who has written you a poor recommendation, but that's not particularly useful, since by the poor recommendations arrive at your PO Box and the other receivers at the same time.
  - BeetleB 7y ago
    > If a professor refuses to hand you the sealed envelope, maybe that's the red flag right there. As a professor, it would be a red flag to me if a student insisted on my handing it to him/her.
    - stakhanov 7y ago
      ...you have to be aware that this business with the sealed envelopes and stuff that exists in the anglo-american cultural sphere is not practiced throughout the world. One day, I asked my prof for a letter of recommendation when applying to a scholarship by an Austrian funding agency which asked for the recommendation to be written in cleartext, readable by anyone handling the application form, including the actual applicant. I had explained this to her, but I guess that by the time she got home she had already forgotten. She handed me the letter of recommendation in a sealed envelope. I opened it to transfer the text into the form. When I saw the way she was writing, A LOT of things started to become clear to me with regard to past application processes that carried letters of recommendation from her. She wasn't trying to be mean or anything, but it was just so obvious that she regarded this as a tedious duty. She didn't put the slightest bit of effort into trying to remember any of the achievements of mine that she had been witness to and could have mentioned, and was being exceedingly British in the way she was tempering her style, and basically only mentioned things that were objectively provably true (so that I was mentioning them elsewhere myself anyway without any questions around credibility if they were coming from me). When a letter of recommendation tries to say something negative, it will mostly say it by way of omission, and the omissions in her writing were huge and gaping. So, let me try to rephrase my initial premise in a less unethical way: If I were a Professor, I would make a point of showing the recommendation letter to the student, and go "This is the letter I'm going to write, let me know if you want me to submit it." In some places there will just be an esprit de corps mentality: People handing positive recommendations to each other whenever requested, unconditionally, and everybody benefits. -- It's just a competition where any cluster of persons with low ethics end up creating an advantage for themselves. So, game theoretically, the only rational course of action is to throw overboard all considerations of ethics. In that sense, I like the Austrian system a lot better because it doesn't create the pretense that the letter of recommendation is not the result of careful selection, when the Ango-American system creates the pretense of ruling out selection when this can actually not be guaranteed. The whole thing also carries a very negative flavour with me for another reason: It always conjures up in my mind a picture of victorian-age London and its caste system. I imagine some rich families employing domestic servants. And I imagine some poor people who have to work as servants. The system entailed that when a servant wanted to leave the service of one family and go to work for another, then the new employer would ask for a letter of recommendation from the previous employer. The idea was that if a person was caught stealing or anything, then a letter saying that this person is a thief would follow that person around and make them unemployable. It is easy to imagine how this serves to cement the caste system and prevent social mobility. I can't think of a single one of my fellow PhD students who didn't have a very complicated relationship with their supervisor, and I think it's a pretty horrible system if the deficiencies in your relationship with your previous employer follow you around to your next. -- It's actually one of the reasons why I dropped out of academia.
- magneticnorth 7y ago
  Agreed, I have also never dealt with letters handed to the student. Nowadays the letters of rec are usually online - the student can send the professor a link to use.
impendia 7y ago
These days, recommendation letters are all electronic. It is possible, sometimes, to game the system. One year I served on a hiring committee while applying for a handful of other jobs. Although I didn't, I could have read my own letters by applying for the job opening in my own department. Even if you don't do that, rec letters sometimes say things like "X is better than Y", with predictable results if/when they get read by Y.
azhenley 7y ago
As a professor, every recommendation letter I have written (or that was written for me) is never seen by the student. The letter writer is contacted directly and given a URL to upload the letter. I've read a lot of recommendation letters too. None have been bad, but you can definitely tell when the writer doesn't know the student well when all they really say is "This student received a good grade in my course." I've seen a few highly opinionated letters that openly discuss a students weaknesses, but also sing their praises regarding their strengths. Those letters felt the most genuine, plus the students were all-stars.
BeetleB 7y ago
Advice I've seen amongst professors: Just ask if they would be willing to write a strongly positive recommendation. Few professors are going to say "Yes" and then write a negative recommendation. You are not worth their time. No doubt pathological cases exist, but they are not the norm.
kerkeslager 7y ago
This is an example of a phenomenon in our culture: people would rather lie to appear to conform to social norms, than have an honest, human conversation. When I ask someone to write me a letter of recommendation, I ask them "Will you write me a positive letter of recommendation? I'm not asking you to lie for me, but if you don't want to write something positive, or just don't want to write me the recommendation, I want to know so I can ask someone else." I've been doing this since high school (I'm 33 now) and I've had one person say "No" to me in that time. There have been many cases where people haven't offered me interviews or whatever, but I have no reason to believe that was because of letters of recommendation.
baselined 7y ago
Typically you waive your rights to view your recommendation letters. With FEPRA, I believe you can review recommendation letters a year after you applied as schools may keep them on file. However, I believe if you did not enroll at a school, they are typically destroyed. Recommendation letters are candid responses from teachers/professors about your abilities and what you will bring to a school. By waiving your rights, it allows them to be more candid in their writing instead of stating facts such as grades and other items readily accessible on your transcript. Having written letters of rec as a school counselor for 8 years, it is a daunting and tiring process. However, the best letters I wrote were because the students befriended me and I was able to write them without them providing me any information.
bobloblaw45 7y ago
Man in high school I needed a letter of recommendation and went to one of my teachers. They said yeah they'll be happy to write me one. They had about a month and a half to do it. Kept checking in every few days and they kept saying they'll get around to it. Didn't want to rush them but as the weeks went by I was sorta running out of time. The last possible day I could get it out in the mail I went to him after class and asked if he had it, looked me right in the face and in front of a bunch of classmates said "You know what, I for the life of me couldn't think of anything good to write about you." Man I was humiliated. I still remember the look of disbelief some of my classmates had. Some time later after thinking about it I got pretty angry because it sure seemed like he was trying to sabotage me, a high school teacher should know that a letter of recommendation was required to get into college. It wasn't even a particularly great college either, a dinky state school out in the boonies. I'm pretty sure you don't even need to say much in the letter. At the very least he could have said no, or said he was too busy weeks earlier. Simply told me he didn't know me well enough. It was partially my fault. I was very naive for a large part of my younger years. I had a weird feeling that this guy didn't like me. But it was always just a feeling. We never argued and I never talked back or disturbed class or anything like that. But there was just something off about how he interacted with me that I always dismissed as being in my head because I didn't see any reason for him to hold anything against me. I was naive because I had no idea that there definitely are people out there looking to screw you over. Not only do they want to see you fail but are willing to help make it happen. I don't see your suggestion as unethical at all. It's great advice. I did finally get that last letter of recommendation from another teacher. One that I only had taken a few classes from in the past but he was more than happy to write something out at the last minute and I did end up going to that school.
- smachiz 7y ago
  All of that may be true - but seems crazy that your first choice for a letter of recommendation was someone who you had a vague inkling that they didn't like you. Shouldn't you start with someone who you know - or at least have the vague inkling - that likes you?

citizenkeen 7y ago

I have never and would never give a letter of recommendation directly to the person I'm writing it on behalf of. I've attended four universities, and all of them had the letters of recommendation addressed directly to them - I never got a copy of the letter.

stakhanov 7y ago
Really? I've always had them handed to me. If a professor refuses to hand you the sealed envelope, maybe that's the red flag right there. Even so: There's probably a way to game that system, too. (Handing them pre-addressed envelopes, and one of the addresses is a PO Box you own?) ...although you have to be careful, because at some point it presumably becomes mail fraud.
- stakhanov 7y ago
  ...I should add, that I didn't do this myself, back in the day, because I was lacking in the worldly wisdom required to have this idea. But thinking back of it, I think it's probably what cost me admission to the places I would have most wanted to get into.
- kerkeslager 7y ago
  > Really? I've always had them handed to me. If a professor refuses to hand you the sealed envelope, maybe that's the red flag right there. Sending it directly is the norm in my experience, and it's directly intended to avoid the "hack" you suggested. > Even so: There's probably a way to game that system, too. (Handing them pre-addressed envelopes, and one of the addresses is a PO Box you own?) ...although you have to be careful, because at some point it presumably becomes mail fraud. That would work for finding out after the fact who has written you a poor recommendation, but that's not particularly useful, since by the poor recommendations arrive at your PO Box and the other receivers at the same time.
- BeetleB 7y ago
  > If a professor refuses to hand you the sealed envelope, maybe that's the red flag right there. As a professor, it would be a red flag to me if a student insisted on my handing it to him/her.
  - stakhanov 7y ago
    ...you have to be aware that this business with the sealed envelopes and stuff that exists in the anglo-american cultural sphere is not practiced throughout the world. One day, I asked my prof for a letter of recommendation when applying to a scholarship by an Austrian funding agency which asked for the recommendation to be written in cleartext, readable by anyone handling the application form, including the actual applicant. I had explained this to her, but I guess that by the time she got home she had already forgotten. She handed me the letter of recommendation in a sealed envelope. I opened it to transfer the text into the form. When I saw the way she was writing, A LOT of things started to become clear to me with regard to past application processes that carried letters of recommendation from her. She wasn't trying to be mean or anything, but it was just so obvious that she regarded this as a tedious duty. She didn't put the slightest bit of effort into trying to remember any of the achievements of mine that she had been witness to and could have mentioned, and was being exceedingly British in the way she was tempering her style, and basically only mentioned things that were objectively provably true (so that I was mentioning them elsewhere myself anyway without any questions around credibility if they were coming from me). When a letter of recommendation tries to say something negative, it will mostly say it by way of omission, and the omissions in her writing were huge and gaping. So, let me try to rephrase my initial premise in a less unethical way: If I were a Professor, I would make a point of showing the recommendation letter to the student, and go "This is the letter I'm going to write, let me know if you want me to submit it." In some places there will just be an esprit de corps mentality: People handing positive recommendations to each other whenever requested, unconditionally, and everybody benefits. -- It's just a competition where any cluster of persons with low ethics end up creating an advantage for themselves. So, game theoretically, the only rational course of action is to throw overboard all considerations of ethics. In that sense, I like the Austrian system a lot better because it doesn't create the pretense that the letter of recommendation is not the result of careful selection, when the Ango-American system creates the pretense of ruling out selection when this can actually not be guaranteed. The whole thing also carries a very negative flavour with me for another reason: It always conjures up in my mind a picture of victorian-age London and its caste system. I imagine some rich families employing domestic servants. And I imagine some poor people who have to work as servants. The system entailed that when a servant wanted to leave the service of one family and go to work for another, then the new employer would ask for a letter of recommendation from the previous employer. The idea was that if a person was caught stealing or anything, then a letter saying that this person is a thief would follow that person around and make them unemployable. It is easy to imagine how this serves to cement the caste system and prevent social mobility. I can't think of a single one of my fellow PhD students who didn't have a very complicated relationship with their supervisor, and I think it's a pretty horrible system if the deficiencies in your relationship with your previous employer follow you around to your next. -- It's actually one of the reasons why I dropped out of academia.
magneticnorth 7y ago
Agreed, I have also never dealt with letters handed to the student. Nowadays the letters of rec are usually online - the student can send the professor a link to use.

impendia 7y ago

These days, recommendation letters are all electronic. It is possible, sometimes, to game the system. One year I served on a hiring committee while applying for a handful of other jobs. Although I didn't, I could have read my own letters by applying for the job opening in my own department. Even if you don't do that, rec letters sometimes say things like "X is better than Y", with predictable results if/when they get read by Y.

azhenley 7y ago

As a professor, every recommendation letter I have written (or that was written for me) is never seen by the student. The letter writer is contacted directly and given a URL to upload the letter. I've read a lot of recommendation letters too. None have been bad, but you can definitely tell when the writer doesn't know the student well when all they really say is "This student received a good grade in my course." I've seen a few highly opinionated letters that openly discuss a students weaknesses, but also sing their praises regarding their strengths. Those letters felt the most genuine, plus the students were all-stars.

BeetleB 7y ago

Advice I've seen amongst professors: Just ask if they would be willing to write a strongly positive recommendation. Few professors are going to say "Yes" and then write a negative recommendation. You are not worth their time. No doubt pathological cases exist, but they are not the norm.

kerkeslager 7y ago

This is an example of a phenomenon in our culture: people would rather lie to appear to conform to social norms, than have an honest, human conversation. When I ask someone to write me a letter of recommendation, I ask them "Will you write me a positive letter of recommendation? I'm not asking you to lie for me, but if you don't want to write something positive, or just don't want to write me the recommendation, I want to know so I can ask someone else." I've been doing this since high school (I'm 33 now) and I've had one person say "No" to me in that time. There have been many cases where people haven't offered me interviews or whatever, but I have no reason to believe that was because of letters of recommendation.

baselined 7y ago

Typically you waive your rights to view your recommendation letters. With FEPRA, I believe you can review recommendation letters a year after you applied as schools may keep them on file. However, I believe if you did not enroll at a school, they are typically destroyed. Recommendation letters are candid responses from teachers/professors about your abilities and what you will bring to a school. By waiving your rights, it allows them to be more candid in their writing instead of stating facts such as grades and other items readily accessible on your transcript. Having written letters of rec as a school counselor for 8 years, it is a daunting and tiring process. However, the best letters I wrote were because the students befriended me and I was able to write them without them providing me any information.

bobloblaw45 7y ago

Man in high school I needed a letter of recommendation and went to one of my teachers. They said yeah they'll be happy to write me one. They had about a month and a half to do it. Kept checking in every few days and they kept saying they'll get around to it. Didn't want to rush them but as the weeks went by I was sorta running out of time. The last possible day I could get it out in the mail I went to him after class and asked if he had it, looked me right in the face and in front of a bunch of classmates said "You know what, I for the life of me couldn't think of anything good to write about you." Man I was humiliated. I still remember the look of disbelief some of my classmates had. Some time later after thinking about it I got pretty angry because it sure seemed like he was trying to sabotage me, a high school teacher should know that a letter of recommendation was required to get into college. It wasn't even a particularly great college either, a dinky state school out in the boonies. I'm pretty sure you don't even need to say much in the letter. At the very least he could have said no, or said he was too busy weeks earlier. Simply told me he didn't know me well enough. It was partially my fault. I was very naive for a large part of my younger years. I had a weird feeling that this guy didn't like me. But it was always just a feeling. We never argued and I never talked back or disturbed class or anything like that. But there was just something off about how he interacted with me that I always dismissed as being in my head because I didn't see any reason for him to hold anything against me. I was naive because I had no idea that there definitely are people out there looking to screw you over. Not only do they want to see you fail but are willing to help make it happen. I don't see your suggestion as unethical at all. It's great advice. I did finally get that last letter of recommendation from another teacher. One that I only had taken a few classes from in the past but he was more than happy to write something out at the last minute and I did end up going to that school.

smachiz 7y ago
All of that may be true - but seems crazy that your first choice for a letter of recommendation was someone who you had a vague inkling that they didn't like you. Shouldn't you start with someone who you know - or at least have the vague inkling - that likes you?