16 ms·

True, but I also know the Max has at least one serious design flaw. I don’t know the same about my car, which is why I’ll take it over a Max any day, and that’

True, but I also know the Max has at least one serious design flaw. I don’t know the same about my car, which is why I’ll take it over a Max any day, and that’s why Boeing is having to PR themselves out of this mess.

umvi 7y ago
> I don’t know the same about my car, which is why I’ll take it over a Max any day "ignorance is bliss" If you knew how much software went into a car vs. an airplane, you might think twice. Airplanes seem more complicated than cars, but software-wise they are much simpler. Cars have millions upon millions more SLOC than airplanes. You think MCAS is bad, how about cars that have sudden loss of steering, emergency brakes that mysteriously engage, or a throttle that can't be disengaged? Serious design flaws in airplanes are these big dramatic events. Serious design flaws in cars pop up in the news every day, and we just ignore them [1][2]. [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/mazda3-recall-sudden-unexpected-emergency-braking/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/mazda3-r... [2] https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/more-cars-recalled-due-to-faulty-takata-airbags/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/more-car...
- CydeWeys 7y ago
  Software flaws in cars are not nearly so catastrophic.
  - umvi 7y ago
    Catastrophic as in 300 people will not die due to the flaw, yes. But one-off car fatalities that kill 1-3 people happen regularly and they add up. The self-driving variety pop up with the highest visibility but if you go searching you'll find tons of accidents where brake failure at highway speeds cause a fatal crash. I do concede that distracted driving and alcohol play a much bigger role in the large amount of car fatalities than software flaws. But I still stand by my original assertion that you are more likely to die due to the effects of a software flaw in your car than due to a software flaw in the 737 Max.
    - CydeWeys 7y ago
      How do software flaws in cars kill you exactly? The main example you bring up is brake failure at high speed, but that's not a software issue, that's a mechanical issue (and is oftentimes caused by neglecting maintenance on the part of the car owner). Yes, there's the self-driving stuff, and there have been some egregious examples, but those systems also save lives by preventing accidents. Lane departure warnings, automatic braking, and electronic stability control all, on the balance of things, make driving much safer.
      - ulfw 7y ago
        Only a heavy-software run car might (e.g. a Tesla autopilot or the Uber fatality). But I agree with you. I fail to see how software bug in a car would lead to a comparable outcome.
        bumby 7y ago
        I don’t think most people realize how software dependent their “dumb” car is. From antilock braking to throttle response to steering response in some cases is largely controlled by software. It goes way beyond the infotainment systems we intuitively think of as software
        kube-system 7y ago
        Electronically controlled throttles have been on the road for over 30 years now, and became extremely common in the mid 2000s.
      - umvi 7y ago
        I agree that cars are more safe now than ever before and that mechanical failure is more deadly than software failure. The whole point of my comment was to put to bed the irrational fear of flying. You are still more safe travelling long distances in a faulty flight system such as the MAX than you are by car. There are just too variables to account for in cars, one of which includes increased software complexity.
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
- HarryHirsch 7y ago
  The Takata airbag issue wasn't ignored at all, it was a very serious safety issue. For defects of that magnitude there's the Department of Transportation, and there will be recalls to pull the faulty part out of circulation.
- magduf 7y ago
  Software flaws in cars usually aren't fatal. If your car has a failure, you just pull over on the side of the road. You can't do that in an airplane. >how about cars that have sudden loss of steering Citation needed. I've never heard of a car having this problem, and it's generally impossible because there's a mechanical link between the steering wheel and the front wheels. >or a throttle that can't be disengaged? Citation needed. I've never heard of this happening where it's been proven to be real and not a publicity stunt. All the problems with "unintended acceleration", including on Toyotas a while back, have been shown to either be people using aftermarket carpet mats, or even people faking it. What's more, turning off the car in an emergency is not hard, even in push-button-start cars. Now of course, we can blame some wrecks from faulty systems on poor driver training, drivers who just aren't very good, drivers who can't handle an emergency, etc. This simply does not apply in an airplane: pilots go through a LOT of training to get that job, so if they crash anyway, that points to an unforgivable mistake in engineering or manufacturing.
  - umvi 7y ago
    > Citation needed. I've never heard of a car having this problem, and it's generally impossible because there's a mechanical link between the steering wheel and the front wheels. https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2018-09-13/gm-recalls-1-million-trucks-worldwide-over-power-steering-failure https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2018-09-1... https://www.ncconsumer.org/news-articles/ford-issues-recall-affecting-ford-fusion-and-lincoln-mkz-vehicles.html https://www.ncconsumer.org/news-articles/ford-issues-recall-...
    - deleted 7y ago
      [deleted]
    - asynchronous13 7y ago
      To be fair, "sudden loss of steering" is different than "sudden loss of power-assisted steering".
      - tialaramex 7y ago
magduf 7y ago
>True, but I also know the Max has at least one serious design flaw. >I don’t know the same about my car In addition, there's no evidence that Airbus planes have design flaws as bad as MCAS. So why fly on a 737MAX when any other plane out there is safer?
- kayfox 7y ago
  There is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72 Edit: To be clear, while this was 10 years ago and noone died, this incident seems to me to be a bit worse than the issues with the 737 MAX in that with the A330, there is no shutting off the systems that caused this issue, as they are part of the flight controls. Fortunately the causes were investigated and while the exact cause of the issue was not identified, the computer systems were updated to deal the fault scenarios identified in the investigation.
  - ahartmetz 7y ago
    That one was a case of electronic gremlins in one particular plane together with a quite particular edge case in the software, based on reasonable assumptions.
    - kayfox 7y ago
      Electronic gremlins that resulted in the temporary loss of flight control responsiveness. In a fly by wire aircraft.
- mrep 7y ago
  > So why fly on a 737MAX when any other plane out there is safer? Well no one can fly one right now as they are all grounded. However, once they get approval for a fix from all countries, the airplanes get updated with said fix, and the pilots get whatever training required for the fix and thus can start flying again, why not fly them? Presumably, that failure type should never happen again and its record seems fine outside of this 1 problem.
megablast 7y ago
Your car has a definite design flaw. Other cars. You can be killed doing everything right. And 1000s of people are every year in the us.

umvi 7y ago

> I don’t know the same about my car, which is why I’ll take it over a Max any day "ignorance is bliss" If you knew how much software went into a car vs. an airplane, you might think twice. Airplanes seem more complicated than cars, but software-wise they are much simpler. Cars have millions upon millions more SLOC than airplanes. You think MCAS is bad, how about cars that have sudden loss of steering, emergency brakes that mysteriously engage, or a throttle that can't be disengaged? Serious design flaws in airplanes are these big dramatic events. Serious design flaws in cars pop up in the news every day, and we just ignore them [1][2]. [1] https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/mazda3-recall-sudden-unexpected-emergency-braking/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/mazda3-r... [2] https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/more-cars-recalled-due-to-faulty-takata-airbags/ https://www.consumerreports.org/car-recalls-defects/more-car...

CydeWeys 7y ago
Software flaws in cars are not nearly so catastrophic.
- umvi 7y ago
  Catastrophic as in 300 people will not die due to the flaw, yes. But one-off car fatalities that kill 1-3 people happen regularly and they add up. The self-driving variety pop up with the highest visibility but if you go searching you'll find tons of accidents where brake failure at highway speeds cause a fatal crash. I do concede that distracted driving and alcohol play a much bigger role in the large amount of car fatalities than software flaws. But I still stand by my original assertion that you are more likely to die due to the effects of a software flaw in your car than due to a software flaw in the 737 Max.
  - CydeWeys 7y ago
    How do software flaws in cars kill you exactly? The main example you bring up is brake failure at high speed, but that's not a software issue, that's a mechanical issue (and is oftentimes caused by neglecting maintenance on the part of the car owner). Yes, there's the self-driving stuff, and there have been some egregious examples, but those systems also save lives by preventing accidents. Lane departure warnings, automatic braking, and electronic stability control all, on the balance of things, make driving much safer.
    - ulfw 7y ago
      Only a heavy-software run car might (e.g. a Tesla autopilot or the Uber fatality). But I agree with you. I fail to see how software bug in a car would lead to a comparable outcome.
      - bumby 7y ago
        I don’t think most people realize how software dependent their “dumb” car is. From antilock braking to throttle response to steering response in some cases is largely controlled by software. It goes way beyond the infotainment systems we intuitively think of as software
        kube-system 7y ago
        Electronically controlled throttles have been on the road for over 30 years now, and became extremely common in the mid 2000s.
    - umvi 7y ago
      I agree that cars are more safe now than ever before and that mechanical failure is more deadly than software failure. The whole point of my comment was to put to bed the irrational fear of flying. You are still more safe travelling long distances in a faulty flight system such as the MAX than you are by car. There are just too variables to account for in cars, one of which includes increased software complexity.
- deleted 7y ago
  [deleted]
HarryHirsch 7y ago
The Takata airbag issue wasn't ignored at all, it was a very serious safety issue. For defects of that magnitude there's the Department of Transportation, and there will be recalls to pull the faulty part out of circulation.
magduf 7y ago
Software flaws in cars usually aren't fatal. If your car has a failure, you just pull over on the side of the road. You can't do that in an airplane. >how about cars that have sudden loss of steering Citation needed. I've never heard of a car having this problem, and it's generally impossible because there's a mechanical link between the steering wheel and the front wheels. >or a throttle that can't be disengaged? Citation needed. I've never heard of this happening where it's been proven to be real and not a publicity stunt. All the problems with "unintended acceleration", including on Toyotas a while back, have been shown to either be people using aftermarket carpet mats, or even people faking it. What's more, turning off the car in an emergency is not hard, even in push-button-start cars. Now of course, we can blame some wrecks from faulty systems on poor driver training, drivers who just aren't very good, drivers who can't handle an emergency, etc. This simply does not apply in an airplane: pilots go through a LOT of training to get that job, so if they crash anyway, that points to an unforgivable mistake in engineering or manufacturing.
- umvi 7y ago
  > Citation needed. I've never heard of a car having this problem, and it's generally impossible because there's a mechanical link between the steering wheel and the front wheels. https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2018-09-13/gm-recalls-1-million-trucks-worldwide-over-power-steering-failure https://www.usnews.com/news/national-news/articles/2018-09-1... https://www.ncconsumer.org/news-articles/ford-issues-recall-affecting-ford-fusion-and-lincoln-mkz-vehicles.html https://www.ncconsumer.org/news-articles/ford-issues-recall-...
  - deleted 7y ago
    [deleted]
  - asynchronous13 7y ago
    To be fair, "sudden loss of steering" is different than "sudden loss of power-assisted steering".
    - tialaramex 7y ago

magduf 7y ago

>True, but I also know the Max has at least one serious design flaw. >I don’t know the same about my car In addition, there's no evidence that Airbus planes have design flaws as bad as MCAS. So why fly on a 737MAX when any other plane out there is safer?

kayfox 7y ago
There is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qantas_Flight_72 Edit: To be clear, while this was 10 years ago and noone died, this incident seems to me to be a bit worse than the issues with the 737 MAX in that with the A330, there is no shutting off the systems that caused this issue, as they are part of the flight controls. Fortunately the causes were investigated and while the exact cause of the issue was not identified, the computer systems were updated to deal the fault scenarios identified in the investigation.
- ahartmetz 7y ago
  That one was a case of electronic gremlins in one particular plane together with a quite particular edge case in the software, based on reasonable assumptions.
  - kayfox 7y ago
    Electronic gremlins that resulted in the temporary loss of flight control responsiveness. In a fly by wire aircraft.
mrep 7y ago
> So why fly on a 737MAX when any other plane out there is safer? Well no one can fly one right now as they are all grounded. However, once they get approval for a fix from all countries, the airplanes get updated with said fix, and the pilots get whatever training required for the fix and thus can start flying again, why not fly them? Presumably, that failure type should never happen again and its record seems fine outside of this 1 problem.

megablast 7y ago

Your car has a definite design flaw. Other cars. You can be killed doing everything right. And 1000s of people are every year in the us.