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Doesn’t every language have such a thing? What makes German more exceptional than English? Or Chinese more exceptional than English? I’m certain there are expre

Doesn’t every language have such a thing? What makes German more exceptional than English? Or Chinese more exceptional than English? I’m certain there are expressions that don’t exist in every language, and even if you translated them, they might not translate well due to cultural or linguistic issues (try translating Monty Python to Chinese while keeping British wit and hoping your average Chinese viewer understands the context of the humor). This might sound overgeneralized but I think every language has its own qualities. Most languages have evolved out of cultural needs (consider words like “Internet,” “email,” and “texting”). For example, Chinese has a word distinguishing language (e.g 英文, literally English culture) and the language itself (英語, literally English language). Most people in normal parlance would say 英文 over 英語 for English, because the culture is inseparable from the language. That’s why Chinese speakers use -文 for languages over -語, such as 中文、英文、日文、西班牙文. For the example of Entschuldigen or “apologize,” Chinese uses several expressions such as 對不起、抱歉. In the case of 對不起 it literally means the speaker cannot face the recipient, as in loss of face. Or another expression is 「不好意思」; this literally means “poor meaning or intentions.” Its English equivalent is approximately “excuse me.” I’m not trying to put down the value of the article. It’s highly intriguing. I just find the exceptionalism a little off-putting when languages like Japanese have similar constructs.

bryanrasmussen 7y ago
I guess what makes German more exceptional than English is the common wisdom about the languages (common wisdom used here as something not necessarily wise or even insightful but just a commonly understood thing that is maybe not even enunciated very often). The common wisdom has that English is a language that imports new concepts from other languages as needed (which implies that these concepts somehow are not English for having been imported), and the common wisdom of German is that they have a word for that slightly messed up concept you just came up with in it, also the habit of German of creating compounds gives the impression of a language in which every concept can be found because there is a word compounded of other words to describe it. Both of these are illustrated by the importation of the word schadenfreude.
- umanwizard 7y ago
  Have you ever studied German? It has an absolutely dizzying number of French and/or Latin loanwords.
  - bryanrasmussen 7y ago
    yes (although I can't remember any of it now whenever I am there for about a week I start being able to communicate when shopping I suppose if I spent a month I might be doing better but I'm never there for more than a week at a time), but anyway I'm talking about the popular conception of German from the American/English perception and the self-perception of the English language from the perception of English speakers. Which I thought was obvious?
    - umanwizard 7y ago
      Sorry, you are right. I misinterpreted your comment.
coldtea 7y ago
>Doesn’t every language have such a thing? Not in the same degree. >What makes German more exceptional than English? Different syntax, more abstract terms, and easier to combine terms and create new meanings. >Or Chinese more exceptional than English? Totally different writing system, syntax and sensibility, and a couple of millennia or more of added history.
- goto11 7y ago
  I will dispute that it is "easier to combine terms and create new meanings" in German than in English. You can combine words to create new words in either language.
  - coldtea 7y ago
    The fact that "you can" doesn't mean that (1) people often do, (2) the language encourages it, (3) the terms are accepted as valid (e.g. when seen in an article or spoken), (4) there are as many compound words in English as in German, (5) it's as historically customary to create compound words and several other things besides. So I don't think one can dispute that it's easier in German.
    - goto11 7y ago
      But do you have data for any of those points? People combine terms in both languages all the time. It just looks different because English more often use compounds with space between the terms, e.g. "light bulb" rather than "lightbulb".
    - Redoubts 7y ago
      I’d replace compound words with gerunding in English.
dwohnitmok 7y ago
英文 means English language, not English culture. This meaning of 文 as language is attested to in plenty of ancient Chinese sources. 文 and 語 are often interchangeable. There are sometimes circumstances where 文 has connotations of writing and 語 has connotations of referring to the language holistically, but it's not a hard and fast rule. For example 你能說英語嗎？and 你能說英文嗎？are both idiomatic and both mean "Can you speak English?" 文化 (culture) is using a different meaning of 文 where it means cultured or refined (see e.g. 文雅 "elegant"). The rules for when you are allowed to use 文 and 語 are slightly irregular. Notably the term 漢語 (the Han language, a synonym for Chinese although even more all-encompassing, e.g. encompassing its many forms through several thousand years) exists, but 漢文 does not, at least not as a modern, common term. It sounds very old-fashioned. Likewise 粵語 (the Yue language) exists. 粵文 does not, at least in the same sense (again sounds very old-fashioned/archaic or sounds like it's referring specifically to the written language). However, for smaller "scopes" of languages, e.g. dialects, neither 語 nor 文 can be used. It is 廣東話 (Cantonese) not 廣東語 nor is it 廣東文. There are many terms in Chinese that have no direct translation into English. There's however a rather glaring pair of words in English that have no direct translation into Chinese. "Yes" and "no" have no direct corresponding words in Chinese. The closest Chinese equivalents of words expressing affirmation or negation such as "是" and "非" cannot be used universally. 你吃過飯嗎? "Have you eaten?" cannot be responded to with "是" or "非" (at least in modern Mandarin, 非 has a more universal sense in Classical Chinese). Responding affirmatively requires repeating the verb "吃了," literally "eaten." While responding negatively doesn't require the verb ("沒有") 沒 cannot be used universally either. 沒有 is not a valid response to 你要去嗎? ("Do you want to go?"). This is true of many languages, e.g. Latin.

bryanrasmussen 7y ago

I guess what makes German more exceptional than English is the common wisdom about the languages (common wisdom used here as something not necessarily wise or even insightful but just a commonly understood thing that is maybe not even enunciated very often). The common wisdom has that English is a language that imports new concepts from other languages as needed (which implies that these concepts somehow are not English for having been imported), and the common wisdom of German is that they have a word for that slightly messed up concept you just came up with in it, also the habit of German of creating compounds gives the impression of a language in which every concept can be found because there is a word compounded of other words to describe it. Both of these are illustrated by the importation of the word schadenfreude.

umanwizard 7y ago
Have you ever studied German? It has an absolutely dizzying number of French and/or Latin loanwords.
- bryanrasmussen 7y ago
  yes (although I can't remember any of it now whenever I am there for about a week I start being able to communicate when shopping I suppose if I spent a month I might be doing better but I'm never there for more than a week at a time), but anyway I'm talking about the popular conception of German from the American/English perception and the self-perception of the English language from the perception of English speakers. Which I thought was obvious?
  - umanwizard 7y ago
    Sorry, you are right. I misinterpreted your comment.

coldtea 7y ago

>Doesn’t every language have such a thing? Not in the same degree. >What makes German more exceptional than English? Different syntax, more abstract terms, and easier to combine terms and create new meanings. >Or Chinese more exceptional than English? Totally different writing system, syntax and sensibility, and a couple of millennia or more of added history.

goto11 7y ago
I will dispute that it is "easier to combine terms and create new meanings" in German than in English. You can combine words to create new words in either language.
- coldtea 7y ago
  The fact that "you can" doesn't mean that (1) people often do, (2) the language encourages it, (3) the terms are accepted as valid (e.g. when seen in an article or spoken), (4) there are as many compound words in English as in German, (5) it's as historically customary to create compound words and several other things besides. So I don't think one can dispute that it's easier in German.
  - goto11 7y ago
    But do you have data for any of those points? People combine terms in both languages all the time. It just looks different because English more often use compounds with space between the terms, e.g. "light bulb" rather than "lightbulb".
  - Redoubts 7y ago
    I’d replace compound words with gerunding in English.

dwohnitmok 7y ago

英文 means English language, not English culture. This meaning of 文 as language is attested to in plenty of ancient Chinese sources. 文 and 語 are often interchangeable. There are sometimes circumstances where 文 has connotations of writing and 語 has connotations of referring to the language holistically, but it's not a hard and fast rule. For example 你能說英語嗎？and 你能說英文嗎？are both idiomatic and both mean "Can you speak English?" 文化 (culture) is using a different meaning of 文 where it means cultured or refined (see e.g. 文雅 "elegant"). The rules for when you are allowed to use 文 and 語 are slightly irregular. Notably the term 漢語 (the Han language, a synonym for Chinese although even more all-encompassing, e.g. encompassing its many forms through several thousand years) exists, but 漢文 does not, at least not as a modern, common term. It sounds very old-fashioned. Likewise 粵語 (the Yue language) exists. 粵文 does not, at least in the same sense (again sounds very old-fashioned/archaic or sounds like it's referring specifically to the written language). However, for smaller "scopes" of languages, e.g. dialects, neither 語 nor 文 can be used. It is 廣東話 (Cantonese) not 廣東語 nor is it 廣東文. There are many terms in Chinese that have no direct translation into English. There's however a rather glaring pair of words in English that have no direct translation into Chinese. "Yes" and "no" have no direct corresponding words in Chinese. The closest Chinese equivalents of words expressing affirmation or negation such as "是" and "非" cannot be used universally. 你吃過飯嗎? "Have you eaten?" cannot be responded to with "是" or "非" (at least in modern Mandarin, 非 has a more universal sense in Classical Chinese). Responding affirmatively requires repeating the verb "吃了," literally "eaten." While responding negatively doesn't require the verb ("沒有") 沒 cannot be used universally either. 沒有 is not a valid response to 你要去嗎? ("Do you want to go?"). This is true of many languages, e.g. Latin.