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Because phones are totally insecure. The only secure option is using an external WiFi or cellular data router for Internet connectivity. The router can of cour

Because phones are totally insecure. The only secure option is using an external WiFi or cellular data router for Internet connectivity. The router can of course be geolocated. And adversaries may gain some access. But it should be possible to prevent access through it to the phone. That is, it's a firewall. Then do end-to-end encrypted Internet stuff, messaging and VoIP. And by using some mix of VPNs and Tor, adversaries won't even see most metadata. Except for communication timing, of course. See https://blog.torproject.org/mission-improbable-hardening-android-security-and-privacy https://blog.torproject.org/mission-improbable-hardening-and... Edit: But this still doesn't protect from some third party with root rights on the phone. For Android, the Copperhead OS might be enough. But I don't know enough to know. And for iOS, I suspect that you're stuck trusting Apple.

judge2020 7y ago
iOS's only security issue is users not updating and being vulnerable to well known vulnerabilities. Neither iOS nor Android will survive a truly targeted nation state attack, but for most people 0-days aren't worth protecting against. The only exception to this is the checkm8 vulnerability, which can be performed on an A11 and older chips (so iPhone XR/XS/XS+ and 11/11 pro/11 pro max aren't vulnerable) from DFU mode, which doesn't need the device passcode.
- mirimir 7y ago
  Right. I guess that phones can't update without direct cellular or WiFi connectivity. But I don't know. Is that true? Could one somehow enable updates through pure TCP/IP?
  - Retric 7y ago
    You can update iOS devices through iTunes via USB, or buy an ethernet adapter.
    - mirimir 7y ago
      Cool. So you could take the phone/tablet totally offline, except for external router via USB. Maybe same for Android? Except that you'd arguably want to update it locally with the Copperhead OS.
    - judge2020 7y ago
      But your computer does need internet, see https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201442 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201442 > If your computer can’t communicate with Apple's software update server, you might see one of these messages.
      - JadeNB 7y ago
        But at least I have more control over what my computer does when it connects to the internet than I do over what my phone does.
  - judge2020 7y ago
    Carrier updates might have some power i'm not aware of on iOS (they pop up saying "do you want to update carrier settings" with simple yes/no options), but regular iOS software updates do require connection to Apple servers and the firmware itself also has to be signed by Apple. The carrier setting thing hasn't ever been use for a jailbreak exploit AFAIK so chances are it's not a good attack vector. From your other comment: > But it mentions the option of wiping baseband firmware iOS also has signature verification for its baseband, since trying to load an incompatible one during a downgrade[0] breaks Face ID / Touch ID. But ya, this is all "trust apple to not do anything". They've made a good stance with refusing the FBI request[1], but the FBI got into the phone anyways[2]. 0: https://github.com/tihmstar/futurerestore https://github.com/tihmstar/futurerestore 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11116274 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11116274 2: https://venturebeat.com/2016/03/28/u-s-government-gains-access-to-shooters-iphone-asks-court-to-vacate-order/ https://venturebeat.com/2016/03/28/u-s-government-gains-acce...
    - mirimir 7y ago
      I guess that a key question is whether one can trust iOS airplane mode to fully take the phone offline. And under what circumstances does the phone leave airplane mode, and go back online. But even if that were solid, you'd still be ~unable to install apps that Apple doesn't provide. Unless you play the developer game, and I gather that's limited in app number, and how long they'll stay functional.
      - seandougall 7y ago
        > whether one can trust iOS airplane mode to fully take the phone offline. I mean, if Apple says airplane mode turns off the cell radio, that’s a falsifiable claim, so you don’t have to take it entirely on faith. It might be possible to hide it in the UI, but you can’t hide a radio signal.
        mirimir 7y ago
        Right, but I was most curious about the persistence of the setting. Say you set airplane mode. And then the phone sleeps. Will it still be in airplane mode after you wake it? Or say you shut the phone off, and restart it. Is it still in airplane mode? That's an issue because, as soon as it's not in airplane mode, it knows where it is. And that reminds me, does airplane mode disable GPS? Because if it doesn't, it's more or less pointless, from a geolocation perspective.
mirimir 7y ago
Belated edit: I forgot to mention that you must also prevent cellular and WiFi connectivity on the phone itself. The Tor Project article recommends airplane mode on Android. But it mentions the option of wiping baseband firmware. Which apparently also takes out GPS. Probably risky, though.

judge2020 7y ago

iOS's only security issue is users not updating and being vulnerable to well known vulnerabilities. Neither iOS nor Android will survive a truly targeted nation state attack, but for most people 0-days aren't worth protecting against. The only exception to this is the checkm8 vulnerability, which can be performed on an A11 and older chips (so iPhone XR/XS/XS+ and 11/11 pro/11 pro max aren't vulnerable) from DFU mode, which doesn't need the device passcode.

mirimir 7y ago
Right. I guess that phones can't update without direct cellular or WiFi connectivity. But I don't know. Is that true? Could one somehow enable updates through pure TCP/IP?
- Retric 7y ago
  You can update iOS devices through iTunes via USB, or buy an ethernet adapter.
  - mirimir 7y ago
    Cool. So you could take the phone/tablet totally offline, except for external router via USB. Maybe same for Android? Except that you'd arguably want to update it locally with the Copperhead OS.
  - judge2020 7y ago
    But your computer does need internet, see https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201442 https://support.apple.com/en-us/HT201442 > If your computer can’t communicate with Apple's software update server, you might see one of these messages.
    - JadeNB 7y ago
      But at least I have more control over what my computer does when it connects to the internet than I do over what my phone does.
- judge2020 7y ago
  Carrier updates might have some power i'm not aware of on iOS (they pop up saying "do you want to update carrier settings" with simple yes/no options), but regular iOS software updates do require connection to Apple servers and the firmware itself also has to be signed by Apple. The carrier setting thing hasn't ever been use for a jailbreak exploit AFAIK so chances are it's not a good attack vector. From your other comment: > But it mentions the option of wiping baseband firmware iOS also has signature verification for its baseband, since trying to load an incompatible one during a downgrade[0] breaks Face ID / Touch ID. But ya, this is all "trust apple to not do anything". They've made a good stance with refusing the FBI request[1], but the FBI got into the phone anyways[2]. 0: https://github.com/tihmstar/futurerestore https://github.com/tihmstar/futurerestore 1: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11116274 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11116274 2: https://venturebeat.com/2016/03/28/u-s-government-gains-access-to-shooters-iphone-asks-court-to-vacate-order/ https://venturebeat.com/2016/03/28/u-s-government-gains-acce...
  - mirimir 7y ago
    I guess that a key question is whether one can trust iOS airplane mode to fully take the phone offline. And under what circumstances does the phone leave airplane mode, and go back online. But even if that were solid, you'd still be ~unable to install apps that Apple doesn't provide. Unless you play the developer game, and I gather that's limited in app number, and how long they'll stay functional.
    - seandougall 7y ago
      > whether one can trust iOS airplane mode to fully take the phone offline. I mean, if Apple says airplane mode turns off the cell radio, that’s a falsifiable claim, so you don’t have to take it entirely on faith. It might be possible to hide it in the UI, but you can’t hide a radio signal.
      - mirimir 7y ago
        Right, but I was most curious about the persistence of the setting. Say you set airplane mode. And then the phone sleeps. Will it still be in airplane mode after you wake it? Or say you shut the phone off, and restart it. Is it still in airplane mode? That's an issue because, as soon as it's not in airplane mode, it knows where it is. And that reminds me, does airplane mode disable GPS? Because if it doesn't, it's more or less pointless, from a geolocation perspective.

mirimir 7y ago

Belated edit: I forgot to mention that you must also prevent cellular and WiFi connectivity on the phone itself. The Tor Project article recommends airplane mode on Android. But it mentions the option of wiping baseband firmware. Which apparently also takes out GPS. Probably risky, though.