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> Evidently, even some retro game enthusiasts want to get rid of pixels so badly that they would rather have a computer smear the art like runny makeup than app

> Evidently, even some retro game enthusiasts want to get rid of pixels so badly that they would rather have a computer smear the art like runny makeup than appreciate the pixel art for what it is. A few years back, the Hebrew University and Microsoft set out to “depixelize” pixel art through a new anti-aliasing(pixel-smoothing) algorithm. I don't care what you have to do, just GET RID OF THOSE SQUARES! > The hand-placement of the squares is precisely what makes this kind of art valuable. If anyone besides artists should appreciate that, it’s retro game enthusiasts. When even they are splintering on this issue, I think it’s time to face the chiptunes. What the younger generations that didn't experience the heyday of ultra low-res CRT displays don't understand is that graphics wasn't perceived as blocky so much. The displays were usually so mushy that everything looked kind of smooth. It was more like an pointillistic painting observed from a far distance than what is known as pixel art today. Of course the LCD of the game-boy is a different story - and probably one source where this misconception comes from - but arcade and home computer era was not very pixely.

zozbot234 7y ago
This. A pixel is a point sample, not a tiny square - even in pixel art. That's why "upscaling" pixel art even to seemingly ludicrous extents is in fact quite appropriate. If you interpolate with a Gaussian kernel, it will yield something very much like what CRT's display, but in a purely digital interpolation you can do a lot better than that. A Lanczos-based resampling gives you a 'watercolor'-like effect that optimally accounts for every single pixel in the original image, while keeping the upsampled image smooth with no "pixelation" whatsoever. (Pixel-art specific algorithms are appropriate to images or sprites with a small color palette, where it is desirable to keep this constraint and generate sharp boundaries between differently-colored areas. Even then, the point is basically to keep things smooth while optimally accounting for what's in the original image.)
- p1necone 7y ago
  Scaling filters like 2xSal look godawful to me (and seem to hide detail), but a bit of blur and scanlines looks great. Makes sense that the type of distortion that the art was made for would be the best for scaling it to me.
city41 7y ago
That may have been true on the average American CRT receiving its signal via RF or composite, but a high quality RGB CRT is very clear. Here is a random example: https://i.imgur.com/qVkhCpH.png https://i.imgur.com/qVkhCpH.png Sure, at home basically nobody had nice RGB monitors, but arcades did. If an arcade monitor was in good condition and well maintained, it delivered a clear, and quite pixelated, picture.
- rasz 7y ago
  In Europe almost every TV had SCART (also caller EURO) connector with RGB input since eighties. My first 386 PC used TV connected over RGB to VGA card with VGATV.COM TRS loaded to reprogram CRTC for 15KHz. Today you can use CRT Emudriver or Soft-15kHz to do this on modern hardware.
  - KozmoNau7 7y ago
    The vast majority of SCART-connected devices used composite video, not RGB. I used a very nice B&O CRT TV for my retro games for a long time, and there was a definite difference between composite, s-video and RGB. Composite is how I remember all games looking when I was a kid. RGB is a huge step up in quality, that most people didn't have, because all pack-in cables were composite only.
    - laumars 7y ago
      You've made this point a few times in this thread and I don't agree with it. My rebuttal: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21912698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21912698
  - weinzierl 7y ago
    > In Europe almost every TV had SCART (also caller EURO) connector with RGB input since eighties. Yes, in the eighties SCART was common, at least our family TV had a SCART connector back then. Still, from what I remember, most kids just used the cinch cable to connect the output of the integrated RF modulator to the antenna input of the TV. Why? Because that cable came with the home computer and you didn't have to bother your parents to buy you an extra cable. Another reason is that the coax cable was long and flexible compared to the SCART cables I have in mind. At least that is what I remember from the era of 8-bit home computers - like Commodore 64 and Amstrad CPC - way before the 80386.
ferongr 7y ago
>The displays were usually so mushy that everything looked kind of smooth Only in countries lacking a standardized high image quality connector like SCART. I remember my old SNES with a SCART cable looking extremely sharp and clear on our 25" Philips CRT TV.
- ekianjo 7y ago
  Even on SCART you could not see the pixels at the regular distance where a TV would be.
  - wetmore 7y ago
    I bet you underestimate how many children played Mario scooted up close to the tv.
    - sneak 7y ago
      I still associate my NES with the smell of ozone.
    - ekianjo 7y ago
      I bet your overestimate anecdotal evidence for an actual phenomenon :-)
- KozmoNau7 7y ago
  Unless you bought an actual RGB cable for your SNES, it was running composite video.
  - rasz 7y ago
    Shipping with lowest common denominator was always the case, but in countries with SCART being standard RGB cables were also a standard upgrade offered by every place selling consoles.
    - KozmoNau7 7y ago
dleslie 7y ago
See also: waterfalls in Sonic 2. In basically all modern ports and in most emulators, the default appearance is aliased pixels. On my CRT in the 90s it was beautifully translucent with no hint of aliasing. The Earthworm Jim level load screen is a good example, too.
- codetrotter 7y ago
  This video talks and shows in great detail exactly those things. https://youtu.be/x0weL5XDpPs https://youtu.be/x0weL5XDpPs
_ph_ 7y ago
Yes, on a CRT the pixels were smoothed a bit, depending on the quality of the CRT and your cable connection, even TVs were available with analog RGB input. But with a good TV you always would also see the pixels. Of course modern, pure digital LCD screens show a rather cruel sharpness and in general are much larger than the typical CRT (desktop screens were 12-15" back then, TVs less than 30"). That is why the best emulators try to strike a middle ground, where pixels are just blurred to the extend to which good CRTs would doo.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]

zozbot234 7y ago

This. A pixel is a point sample, not a tiny square - even in pixel art. That's why "upscaling" pixel art even to seemingly ludicrous extents is in fact quite appropriate. If you interpolate with a Gaussian kernel, it will yield something very much like what CRT's display, but in a purely digital interpolation you can do a lot better than that. A Lanczos-based resampling gives you a 'watercolor'-like effect that optimally accounts for every single pixel in the original image, while keeping the upsampled image smooth with no "pixelation" whatsoever. (Pixel-art specific algorithms are appropriate to images or sprites with a small color palette, where it is desirable to keep this constraint and generate sharp boundaries between differently-colored areas. Even then, the point is basically to keep things smooth while optimally accounting for what's in the original image.)

p1necone 7y ago
Scaling filters like 2xSal look godawful to me (and seem to hide detail), but a bit of blur and scanlines looks great. Makes sense that the type of distortion that the art was made for would be the best for scaling it to me.

city41 7y ago

That may have been true on the average American CRT receiving its signal via RF or composite, but a high quality RGB CRT is very clear. Here is a random example: https://i.imgur.com/qVkhCpH.png https://i.imgur.com/qVkhCpH.png Sure, at home basically nobody had nice RGB monitors, but arcades did. If an arcade monitor was in good condition and well maintained, it delivered a clear, and quite pixelated, picture.

rasz 7y ago
In Europe almost every TV had SCART (also caller EURO) connector with RGB input since eighties. My first 386 PC used TV connected over RGB to VGA card with VGATV.COM TRS loaded to reprogram CRTC for 15KHz. Today you can use CRT Emudriver or Soft-15kHz to do this on modern hardware.
- KozmoNau7 7y ago
  The vast majority of SCART-connected devices used composite video, not RGB. I used a very nice B&O CRT TV for my retro games for a long time, and there was a definite difference between composite, s-video and RGB. Composite is how I remember all games looking when I was a kid. RGB is a huge step up in quality, that most people didn't have, because all pack-in cables were composite only.
  - laumars 7y ago
    You've made this point a few times in this thread and I don't agree with it. My rebuttal: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21912698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21912698
- weinzierl 7y ago
  > In Europe almost every TV had SCART (also caller EURO) connector with RGB input since eighties. Yes, in the eighties SCART was common, at least our family TV had a SCART connector back then. Still, from what I remember, most kids just used the cinch cable to connect the output of the integrated RF modulator to the antenna input of the TV. Why? Because that cable came with the home computer and you didn't have to bother your parents to buy you an extra cable. Another reason is that the coax cable was long and flexible compared to the SCART cables I have in mind. At least that is what I remember from the era of 8-bit home computers - like Commodore 64 and Amstrad CPC - way before the 80386.

ferongr 7y ago

>The displays were usually so mushy that everything looked kind of smooth Only in countries lacking a standardized high image quality connector like SCART. I remember my old SNES with a SCART cable looking extremely sharp and clear on our 25" Philips CRT TV.

ekianjo 7y ago
Even on SCART you could not see the pixels at the regular distance where a TV would be.
- wetmore 7y ago
  I bet you underestimate how many children played Mario scooted up close to the tv.
  - sneak 7y ago
    I still associate my NES with the smell of ozone.
  - ekianjo 7y ago
    I bet your overestimate anecdotal evidence for an actual phenomenon :-)
KozmoNau7 7y ago
Unless you bought an actual RGB cable for your SNES, it was running composite video.
- rasz 7y ago
  Shipping with lowest common denominator was always the case, but in countries with SCART being standard RGB cables were also a standard upgrade offered by every place selling consoles.
  - KozmoNau7 7y ago

dleslie 7y ago

See also: waterfalls in Sonic 2. In basically all modern ports and in most emulators, the default appearance is aliased pixels. On my CRT in the 90s it was beautifully translucent with no hint of aliasing. The Earthworm Jim level load screen is a good example, too.

codetrotter 7y ago
This video talks and shows in great detail exactly those things. https://youtu.be/x0weL5XDpPs https://youtu.be/x0weL5XDpPs

_ph_ 7y ago

Yes, on a CRT the pixels were smoothed a bit, depending on the quality of the CRT and your cable connection, even TVs were available with analog RGB input. But with a good TV you always would also see the pixels. Of course modern, pure digital LCD screens show a rather cruel sharpness and in general are much larger than the typical CRT (desktop screens were 12-15" back then, TVs less than 30"). That is why the best emulators try to strike a middle ground, where pixels are just blurred to the extend to which good CRTs would doo.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]