4 ms·

Did you watch the video that was linked? This wasn't an eviction, they started to physically assault him. Fortunately, it looks like the prosecutor has started

by itg 7y ago

Did you watch the video that was linked? This wasn't an eviction, they started to physically assault him. Fortunately, it looks like the prosecutor has started a case against the assaulters.

zxexz 7y ago
What I see in the video looks like security removing somebody from the premises.
- pnako 7y ago
  It looks like a bunch of teenagers jumping someone. They don't look or behave like professional security agents. The bad chokehold one of them was attempting is actually banned from many police forces.
  - tastroder 7y ago
    > They don't look or behave like professional security agents. Well they aren't. Security roles at congress are performed by volunteers and that's a good thing, they don't usually have to physically evict people.
    - scurvy 7y ago
      Call the police. Don't use a nerd militia.
      - eqvinox 7y ago
        (Posted in another branch, here for reference:) The "they should've called the police" argument is legally wrong in Germany. The allies were pretty pissed off after WW2 and wanted to eliminate the "bystander" excuse for people who watched Jews getting gassed. That's where the "failure to render aid" law comes from. Of course, you're not expected to endanger yourself, but - say, there's an average guy assaulting someone, and you're travelling in a group of 5 reasonably muscular, capable guys... your excuse to not step in is gone.
        scurvy 7y ago
        It doesn't seem that the "aggressor" here was very aggressive and remained largely passive. No laws are absolute and that's what judges are for. I doubt the "failure to render aid" law in Germany is interpreted as everyone is deputized to enforce every law, everywhere, at all times. There's probably a narrower view on what's appropriate and when. (More related to the actual events) if someone illegally parks their car in your driveway, you should call the police to have it cited and towed. You can't break the windows and try to move it yourself under normal circumstances. However, if there were a fire and the car were blocking some sort of escape, then sure, break the windows and drop the parking brake to get the car moved. Again, this is why we have judges and you should call the police in almost every case except those involving grave danger.
    - namibj 7y ago
      Gate/door watch is volunteer/"angel shifts". The CrewCrew bouncers are hired as far as I know. Angels don't have a reason to assault anyone except in personal self-defense, i.e. punching someone who's trying to jab a screwdriver into them or similar 1 on 1 assault defense cases. The gate access control angels are instructed to dial 110 on DECT which connects them to CrewCrew dispatch/triage.
glogla 7y ago
I think might be a cultural difference? To _physically_ move someone who doesn't want to be move, you have to _physically_ grab them and move them. You usually do this with multiple people, in case the person might get violent or something. But I know that in some jurisdictions, just grabbing someone, not to mention moving them, is considered assault. So there's a conflict I guess? I'm not sure how to reconcile this, just be advised that customs around the world differ.
- eqvinox 7y ago
  German law covers this in §32 StGB ("emergency defense"), which includes emergency assistance. If people were reasonably convinced that he was threatening others, they're done & out clear. P.S.: in German law, it's actually a crime to _not_ render assistance to others in danger - StGB §323c ("failure to render assistance")
  - FDSGSG 7y ago
    > If people were reasonably convinced that he was threatening others You're the first person to suggest that he was threatening others.
    - eqvinox 7y ago
      No, I'm the first person to suggest that (multiple) people believed he was threatening others. Please read carefully :) It doesn't matter whether he was intending to threaten, or ignorant about the rules, or just stupid. If he leaves the boundary of socially acceptable behaviour (yes this is subjective and established by the community) then he may full well get evicted, and with force if necessary. On the legal side, a judge or jury would repeat that consideration, and establish whether his behaviour was beyond acceptable for the context he was in. Not by the judge's or jury's social standards, but by trying to understand the situation and determine whether the crowd acted "reasonable." Since there's quite a bunch of people involved in his getting kicked out video, I would wager a guess that there was consensus that his behaviour was inacceptable, and a judge/jury would side with that. German law doesn't do "I spilled hot Starbucks, now I sue Starbucks for damages". You're expected to have a brain and some level of common sense (or be certified psychologically ill, if you prefer). Relatedly, the "they should've called the police" argument is legally wrong in Germany too. The allies were pretty pissed off after WW2 and wanted to eliminate the "bystander" excuse for people who watched Jews getting gassed. That's where the "failure to render aid" law comes from. Of course, you're not expected to endanger yourself, but - say, there's an average guy assaulting someone, and you're travelling in a group of 5 reasonably muscular, capable guys... your excuse to not step in is gone.

by itg 7y ago

Did you watch the video that was linked? This wasn't an eviction, they started to physically assault him. Fortunately, it looks like the prosecutor has started a case against the assaulters.

zxexz 7y ago

What I see in the video looks like security removing somebody from the premises.

pnako 7y ago
It looks like a bunch of teenagers jumping someone. They don't look or behave like professional security agents. The bad chokehold one of them was attempting is actually banned from many police forces.
- tastroder 7y ago
  > They don't look or behave like professional security agents. Well they aren't. Security roles at congress are performed by volunteers and that's a good thing, they don't usually have to physically evict people.
  - scurvy 7y ago
    Call the police. Don't use a nerd militia.
    - eqvinox 7y ago
      (Posted in another branch, here for reference:) The "they should've called the police" argument is legally wrong in Germany. The allies were pretty pissed off after WW2 and wanted to eliminate the "bystander" excuse for people who watched Jews getting gassed. That's where the "failure to render aid" law comes from. Of course, you're not expected to endanger yourself, but - say, there's an average guy assaulting someone, and you're travelling in a group of 5 reasonably muscular, capable guys... your excuse to not step in is gone.
      - scurvy 7y ago
        It doesn't seem that the "aggressor" here was very aggressive and remained largely passive. No laws are absolute and that's what judges are for. I doubt the "failure to render aid" law in Germany is interpreted as everyone is deputized to enforce every law, everywhere, at all times. There's probably a narrower view on what's appropriate and when. (More related to the actual events) if someone illegally parks their car in your driveway, you should call the police to have it cited and towed. You can't break the windows and try to move it yourself under normal circumstances. However, if there were a fire and the car were blocking some sort of escape, then sure, break the windows and drop the parking brake to get the car moved. Again, this is why we have judges and you should call the police in almost every case except those involving grave danger.
  - namibj 7y ago
    Gate/door watch is volunteer/"angel shifts". The CrewCrew bouncers are hired as far as I know. Angels don't have a reason to assault anyone except in personal self-defense, i.e. punching someone who's trying to jab a screwdriver into them or similar 1 on 1 assault defense cases. The gate access control angels are instructed to dial 110 on DECT which connects them to CrewCrew dispatch/triage.

glogla 7y ago

I think might be a cultural difference? To _physically_ move someone who doesn't want to be move, you have to _physically_ grab them and move them. You usually do this with multiple people, in case the person might get violent or something. But I know that in some jurisdictions, just grabbing someone, not to mention moving them, is considered assault. So there's a conflict I guess? I'm not sure how to reconcile this, just be advised that customs around the world differ.

eqvinox 7y ago
German law covers this in §32 StGB ("emergency defense"), which includes emergency assistance. If people were reasonably convinced that he was threatening others, they're done & out clear. P.S.: in German law, it's actually a crime to _not_ render assistance to others in danger - StGB §323c ("failure to render assistance")
- FDSGSG 7y ago
  > If people were reasonably convinced that he was threatening others You're the first person to suggest that he was threatening others.
  - eqvinox 7y ago
    No, I'm the first person to suggest that (multiple) people believed he was threatening others. Please read carefully :) It doesn't matter whether he was intending to threaten, or ignorant about the rules, or just stupid. If he leaves the boundary of socially acceptable behaviour (yes this is subjective and established by the community) then he may full well get evicted, and with force if necessary. On the legal side, a judge or jury would repeat that consideration, and establish whether his behaviour was beyond acceptable for the context he was in. Not by the judge's or jury's social standards, but by trying to understand the situation and determine whether the crowd acted "reasonable." Since there's quite a bunch of people involved in his getting kicked out video, I would wager a guess that there was consensus that his behaviour was inacceptable, and a judge/jury would side with that. German law doesn't do "I spilled hot Starbucks, now I sue Starbucks for damages". You're expected to have a brain and some level of common sense (or be certified psychologically ill, if you prefer). Relatedly, the "they should've called the police" argument is legally wrong in Germany too. The allies were pretty pissed off after WW2 and wanted to eliminate the "bystander" excuse for people who watched Jews getting gassed. That's where the "failure to render aid" law comes from. Of course, you're not expected to endanger yourself, but - say, there's an average guy assaulting someone, and you're travelling in a group of 5 reasonably muscular, capable guys... your excuse to not step in is gone.