7 ms·

> We all know this kind of project should be done in Rust As a user, I don't care whether the tool is in Go, C++, Rust, or whatever else. If Docker was written

> We all know this kind of project should be done in Rust As a user, I don't care whether the tool is in Go, C++, Rust, or whatever else. If Docker was written in C (or Rust, or whatever else), it would have zero effect on my usage of Docker.

pjmlp 7y ago
As proven by the ongoing CCC talks, if Docker was written in C, security patches will be coming up daily.
- caspper69 7y ago
  Your brain is being polluted. This is just wrong.
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    My brain is not tainted by careless security programming practices with 30+ years of history.
    - rumanator 7y ago
      You don't do security by switching programming languages. If you think you do then you have more serious problems to deal with than picking a programming language.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        The security teams from Microsoft, Google and Apple think differently.
        anthk 7y ago
        Until the Rust runtime gets vulnerable and hilarity ensues. Well, not much. Everyone trusted rust blindly, shit happens x200 everywhere.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        C folks are so afraid of Rust taking their baby away. When we security minded people talk about secure languages, we have a panoply to chose from, Swift, D, OCaml, Java, .NET, ATS, Ada, Go, Nim, Zig, Crystal and many more, yet you always think that we speak only about Rust.
        rumanator 7y ago
        > C folks are so afraid of Rust taking their baby away. This tribal way of thinking makes no sense at all. I qualify as a C and C++ developer and I'm very excited with Rust. The only baby there is is the software project we are working on.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        It makes sense in the context that every time one mentions safe systems programming, most people of that background only think about Rust. Meanwhile I, and others have been replacing C and C++ written applications by safer stacks long before Rust was born. And on mobile OSes, the alternative languagea that are being pushed are not Rust. Yet the replies are always as if we are only talking about Rust as alternative.
        anthk 7y ago
        I like Go. It's a logical step over the C and Unix portability philosophy, expecially the C from plan9/9front, where cross-compiling is dead easy.
        steveklabnik 7y ago
        (Rust has about as much runtime as C and C++ do)
        anthk 7y ago
        No.
  - rvz 7y ago
    > Your brain is being polluted. This is just wrong. This isn't even an argument here. How is he/she wrong? It's true that the majority of C/C++ programs are riddled with memory corruption vulnerabilities. Just look at the countless CVE's of WebKit, Linux, Chrome, V8, VMWare and the list forever goes on. There is a case for Rust to reduce or possibly eliminate these age old vulnerabilities which C/C++ find it hard to do. You are free to change my mind. :)
    - anthk 7y ago
      OpenVMS was promoted as ultrasecure back in the day. Hint: exploits happened too. Here's your hard slap in your face. https://medium.com/@shnatsel/how-rusts-standard-library-was-vulnerable-for-years-and-nobody-noticed-aebf0503c3d6 https://medium.com/@shnatsel/how-rusts-standard-library-was-...
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Surely they did happen, a tiny set, meanwhile the C flaws that allowed the Morris worm to happen 30 years ago, are still present in C11 being written today.
        anthk 7y ago
        Current compiler and OSes have some protections to avoid that precisely. It won't be that easy.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Apparently it is, given the exploits presented at CCC talks. Or the ones given by Google and Microsoft at Linux Kernel Security Summit 2018 and 2019.
        anthk 7y ago
        I use OpenBSD, other OS'es focusing on performance over security doesn't interest me. Except 9front, but because of the huge networked grid as a bare computer. But in OpenBSD even plan9port compiled software is done with Retguard: >nm $HOME/Docs/c/p9p/9.aecho | grep retpo 00003150 t __llvm_retpoline_r11 https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20170819230157 https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20170819230157 It makes using acid(1) in OpenBSD a bit more difficult, but I almost always omit that.
- anthk 7y ago
  OpenBSD -stable base errors: anthk:~>syspatch -l | wc -l 15 Who cares about your toy language backed from Mozilla. Do you think the Go runtime from Docker is bug free? https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-14185/Golang.html https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-1418...
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    I don't use any toy language from Mozilla, neither do Google, Microsoft for that matter. We are counting memory corruption and UB bugs here.
    - laughingman2 7y ago
      But why is microsoft experimenting with the toy language then? https://www.infoq.com/news/2019/11/microsoft-exploring-rust-safety/ https://www.infoq.com/news/2019/11/microsoft-exploring-rust-... 70% of microsoft errors would be gone in future if they start using what you demean as "toy" language. https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-70-percent-of-all-security-bugs-are-memory-safety-issues/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-70-percent-of-all-se...
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Go talk to anthk, please. I am not the one talking about toy languages, other than using sarcasm on my reply to anthk.
- seisvelas 7y ago
  What are the ongoing CCC talks? Sounds interesting.
  - namibj 7y ago
    https://media.ccc.de https://media.ccc.de
- rumanator 7y ago
  > As proven by the ongoing CCC talks, if Docker was written in C, security patches will be coming up daily. SQLite is written in ANSI C. What's your point?
  - pjmlp 7y ago
    Which includes a battle test of unit tests, and yet: https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-9237/Sqlite.html https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-9237... This is my point.
    - jstimpfle 7y ago
      To have only so few entries accumulated over more than a decade, for a project as well-known as sqlite3, which is in the 100Ks of lines of code, is an incredible feat, and would be so regardless of the implementation language.
      - pjmlp 7y ago
        Not really, given that in 2019 they are still fixing heap corruption and use after free exploits.
temac 7y ago
This is not a "tool" for "users", this is to write your own programs in a funny way, in C++

pjmlp 7y ago

As proven by the ongoing CCC talks, if Docker was written in C, security patches will be coming up daily.

caspper69 7y ago
Your brain is being polluted. This is just wrong.
- pjmlp 7y ago
  My brain is not tainted by careless security programming practices with 30+ years of history.
  - rumanator 7y ago
    You don't do security by switching programming languages. If you think you do then you have more serious problems to deal with than picking a programming language.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      The security teams from Microsoft, Google and Apple think differently.
      - anthk 7y ago
        Until the Rust runtime gets vulnerable and hilarity ensues. Well, not much. Everyone trusted rust blindly, shit happens x200 everywhere.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        C folks are so afraid of Rust taking their baby away. When we security minded people talk about secure languages, we have a panoply to chose from, Swift, D, OCaml, Java, .NET, ATS, Ada, Go, Nim, Zig, Crystal and many more, yet you always think that we speak only about Rust.
        rumanator 7y ago
        > C folks are so afraid of Rust taking their baby away. This tribal way of thinking makes no sense at all. I qualify as a C and C++ developer and I'm very excited with Rust. The only baby there is is the software project we are working on.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        It makes sense in the context that every time one mentions safe systems programming, most people of that background only think about Rust. Meanwhile I, and others have been replacing C and C++ written applications by safer stacks long before Rust was born. And on mobile OSes, the alternative languagea that are being pushed are not Rust. Yet the replies are always as if we are only talking about Rust as alternative.
        anthk 7y ago
        I like Go. It's a logical step over the C and Unix portability philosophy, expecially the C from plan9/9front, where cross-compiling is dead easy.
        steveklabnik 7y ago
        (Rust has about as much runtime as C and C++ do)
        anthk 7y ago
        No.
- rvz 7y ago
  > Your brain is being polluted. This is just wrong. This isn't even an argument here. How is he/she wrong? It's true that the majority of C/C++ programs are riddled with memory corruption vulnerabilities. Just look at the countless CVE's of WebKit, Linux, Chrome, V8, VMWare and the list forever goes on. There is a case for Rust to reduce or possibly eliminate these age old vulnerabilities which C/C++ find it hard to do. You are free to change my mind. :)
  - anthk 7y ago
    OpenVMS was promoted as ultrasecure back in the day. Hint: exploits happened too. Here's your hard slap in your face. https://medium.com/@shnatsel/how-rusts-standard-library-was-vulnerable-for-years-and-nobody-noticed-aebf0503c3d6 https://medium.com/@shnatsel/how-rusts-standard-library-was-...
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Surely they did happen, a tiny set, meanwhile the C flaws that allowed the Morris worm to happen 30 years ago, are still present in C11 being written today.
      - anthk 7y ago
        Current compiler and OSes have some protections to avoid that precisely. It won't be that easy.
        pjmlp 7y ago
        Apparently it is, given the exploits presented at CCC talks. Or the ones given by Google and Microsoft at Linux Kernel Security Summit 2018 and 2019.
        anthk 7y ago
        I use OpenBSD, other OS'es focusing on performance over security doesn't interest me. Except 9front, but because of the huge networked grid as a bare computer. But in OpenBSD even plan9port compiled software is done with Retguard: >nm $HOME/Docs/c/p9p/9.aecho | grep retpo 00003150 t __llvm_retpoline_r11 https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20170819230157 https://undeadly.org/cgi?action=article&sid=20170819230157 It makes using acid(1) in OpenBSD a bit more difficult, but I almost always omit that.
anthk 7y ago
OpenBSD -stable base errors: anthk:~>syspatch -l | wc -l 15 Who cares about your toy language backed from Mozilla. Do you think the Go runtime from Docker is bug free? https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-14185/Golang.html https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-1418...
- pjmlp 7y ago
  I don't use any toy language from Mozilla, neither do Google, Microsoft for that matter. We are counting memory corruption and UB bugs here.
  - laughingman2 7y ago
    But why is microsoft experimenting with the toy language then? https://www.infoq.com/news/2019/11/microsoft-exploring-rust-safety/ https://www.infoq.com/news/2019/11/microsoft-exploring-rust-... 70% of microsoft errors would be gone in future if they start using what you demean as "toy" language. https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-70-percent-of-all-security-bugs-are-memory-safety-issues/ https://www.zdnet.com/article/microsoft-70-percent-of-all-se...
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Go talk to anthk, please. I am not the one talking about toy languages, other than using sarcasm on my reply to anthk.
seisvelas 7y ago
What are the ongoing CCC talks? Sounds interesting.
- namibj 7y ago
  https://media.ccc.de https://media.ccc.de
rumanator 7y ago
> As proven by the ongoing CCC talks, if Docker was written in C, security patches will be coming up daily. SQLite is written in ANSI C. What's your point?
- pjmlp 7y ago
  Which includes a battle test of unit tests, and yet: https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-9237/Sqlite.html https://www.cvedetails.com/vulnerability-list/vendor_id-9237... This is my point.
  - jstimpfle 7y ago
    To have only so few entries accumulated over more than a decade, for a project as well-known as sqlite3, which is in the 100Ks of lines of code, is an incredible feat, and would be so regardless of the implementation language.
    - pjmlp 7y ago
      Not really, given that in 2019 they are still fixing heap corruption and use after free exploits.

temac 7y ago

This is not a "tool" for "users", this is to write your own programs in a funny way, in C++