4 ms·

I've worked with the overseas "talent" and if that is the best they can do, I'm not worried. Hell, I've worked with a lot of people on the US side of the pond

I've worked with the overseas "talent" and if that is the best they can do, I'm not worried. Hell, I've worked with a lot of people on the US side of the pond who have experience or are educatied and they can't rub two keyboards together to ship a product. My observation has been the opposite: no matter how much you offer, a lot of companies STILL cannot hire enough engineering talent.

srikz 7y ago
I think a lot of the good practices and skills necessary to ship good quality software are not documented well (or formalized). That's why working with good teams and learning from good devs (or profs) is what determines the quality of a developer. Also, time and again we see posts here lamenting the hiring process in this industry and we haven't cracked it yet. This adds to the demand-supply gap. Anecdote: I have interacted with some of the 'overseas talent' and they were excellent programmers but lacked communication and hadn't fully figured out the mechanics of working in teams. Others from the same background but who decided to get a higher education from US had better exposure and generally fared better.
- ehnto 7y ago
  Totally agree. Successful software engineering has almost nothing to do with clever programming tricks and everything to do with writing software that's empathetic to being within a commercial and team environment. That means writing software that takes into account that it will be read by others, used by others, and inevitably changed by others. Interview processes at so many software companies don't do a good job of selecting for it. They still look for algorithmic competence and next to nothing about teamwork and structuring software projects.
- GuiA 7y ago
  I’d argue that many of these practices and skills are in fact non documentable/teachable (see the oft cited problem of teaching recursion/pointers to CS students, and that’s just one of many fundamental required things that are way more formally defined compared to “leading a team to ship consistently good software”). I’m sure many of us have seen very motivated, well intentioned junior developers who struggle very hard to push and improve their skills and still get completely left in the dust compared to the engineers who just seem to have a knack for it. In this way software engineering resembles traditional craftsmanship more than any other discipline.
  - Piskvorrr 7y ago
    Methinks this is a property of a new (~50 yrs) industry, rather than an inherent property of programming. Whereas programming itself has somewhat solidified, most of the programmer management/learning/etc. state-of-the-art still deals in nasal demons, i.e. much is still seat-of-the-pants experimental.
BrissyCoder 7y ago
Yeah this. I've been in the industry almost 20 years and over that time have noticed a massive shift in recuitment processes. The first couple of jobs I had the interview process was a conversation with barely any technical content (let alone being asked to write a single line of code). Nowadays there is a generally a barrage of technical testing. I think companies are realising the huge difference between having top 20%ile programmers versus the rest. Where I am currently although we get plenty of applicants we simply can't fill all of the spots. Agree with the overseas talent comment as well. The amount of technical debt they create is massive, the overhead in communication is too high, and the people aren't invested in the products the code they are creating.
- EastSmith 7y ago
  > Agree with the overseas talent comment as well. The amount of technical debt they create is massive, the overhead in communication is too high, and the people aren't invested in the products the code they are creating. Technical debt: As an oversee talent, cleaning up the technical debt created by (now left) US employee, we can see that both yours and mine experiences are anecdotal. Slack Communication Me: 1. Question A, 2. Question B, 3. Question C US employee: answers half of the question B, general ramblings about A and C Zoom communication Me: Lets get on zoom and figure this out right now US employee: lets schedule the meeting on 2 days, throw a PM and two more developers in it, so they can waste time too So, I guess, lets agree that generalizations are not ok.
  - SgtBastard 7y ago
    You just made the parents point about the overhead in dealing with offshore devs is too high to be productive. Perhaps you’d like to expand on this technical debt you’re cleaning up?
- edem 7y ago
  There is a flip side to this: check my other comment. "Overseas talent" is not invested in the product because most companies don't treat "overseas talent" as equals. My experience as "overseas talent" is that US companies bring their own technical debt which they are powerless to fix and they blame us for their incompetence.
tasty_freeze 7y ago
Your experience is vastly different from mine. I've worked at 7 different silicon valley companies in my 35 years of employment, though the last 20 have been at two particularly high flying companies. Approximate half the staff is foreign born, some US educated and most foreign educated. I see no pattern to skill levels between US born and foreign born coworkers. Maybe it is because these companies draw top talent, and can afford to pay for it, I have this experience. You might be cynical and think I'm a "meh" level employee who is easily impressed, but my pay grade and annual reviews say otherwise.
- almost_usual 7y ago
  The comment suggested people who still lived overseas. The foreign born talent you work with lives in the US now. If anything it suggests the best talent moves to the US for the better salary and quality of life.
  - tasty_freeze 7y ago
    My company has significant teams in many countries. Daily I work with people from all over the world. I've certainly worked with some excellent people who worked in China and in India and had never set foot in the US. But you are right, the majority of the people I work most closely with are in the US and so I know their characteristics the best.
- runT1ME 7y ago
  You are both making different points, because I agree with both of you. Some of the best engineers I’ve worked with have been foreign born, and I’ve also seen disasters happen due to outsourcing to foreign talent. These are two vastly different groups we are talking about. The best foreign engineers almost always end up working for well paying product companies. The other end of the spectrum, foreign or US, often end up at contracting companies that compete on price.
edem 7y ago
I've worked for US companies and I'm amazed how low quality their talent is in general compared to talent in Europe. Then I realized that US companies can afford to buy top 2% talent in the EU, but most of them can't afford to do the same in the US. So this leads to a very frustrating situation where you're smarter than most of your US colleagues, but they still tell you what to do because they hired you.
- tharne 7y ago
  Just as in other fields, Europeans tend to outpace the U.S. when it comes to book smarts, but lag when it comes to things you can't/don't learn in school. They're great at building exactly to requirements, but less skilled at handling the unexpected or coming up with something novel. There's a place for both skill sets, fortunately.
break_the_bank 7y ago
I think if you play the game of finding the lowest bidder to do the job you'll definitely run into folks who aren't good on both sides of the pond. If you pay the buck you can hire excellent engineers in India, China, Eastern Europe & other parts of the world. No wonder Amazon/Google/Microsoft have a large developer presence in these markets.

srikz 7y ago

I think a lot of the good practices and skills necessary to ship good quality software are not documented well (or formalized). That's why working with good teams and learning from good devs (or profs) is what determines the quality of a developer. Also, time and again we see posts here lamenting the hiring process in this industry and we haven't cracked it yet. This adds to the demand-supply gap. Anecdote: I have interacted with some of the 'overseas talent' and they were excellent programmers but lacked communication and hadn't fully figured out the mechanics of working in teams. Others from the same background but who decided to get a higher education from US had better exposure and generally fared better.

ehnto 7y ago
Totally agree. Successful software engineering has almost nothing to do with clever programming tricks and everything to do with writing software that's empathetic to being within a commercial and team environment. That means writing software that takes into account that it will be read by others, used by others, and inevitably changed by others. Interview processes at so many software companies don't do a good job of selecting for it. They still look for algorithmic competence and next to nothing about teamwork and structuring software projects.
GuiA 7y ago
I’d argue that many of these practices and skills are in fact non documentable/teachable (see the oft cited problem of teaching recursion/pointers to CS students, and that’s just one of many fundamental required things that are way more formally defined compared to “leading a team to ship consistently good software”). I’m sure many of us have seen very motivated, well intentioned junior developers who struggle very hard to push and improve their skills and still get completely left in the dust compared to the engineers who just seem to have a knack for it. In this way software engineering resembles traditional craftsmanship more than any other discipline.
- Piskvorrr 7y ago
  Methinks this is a property of a new (~50 yrs) industry, rather than an inherent property of programming. Whereas programming itself has somewhat solidified, most of the programmer management/learning/etc. state-of-the-art still deals in nasal demons, i.e. much is still seat-of-the-pants experimental.

BrissyCoder 7y ago

Yeah this. I've been in the industry almost 20 years and over that time have noticed a massive shift in recuitment processes. The first couple of jobs I had the interview process was a conversation with barely any technical content (let alone being asked to write a single line of code). Nowadays there is a generally a barrage of technical testing. I think companies are realising the huge difference between having top 20%ile programmers versus the rest. Where I am currently although we get plenty of applicants we simply can't fill all of the spots. Agree with the overseas talent comment as well. The amount of technical debt they create is massive, the overhead in communication is too high, and the people aren't invested in the products the code they are creating.

EastSmith 7y ago
> Agree with the overseas talent comment as well. The amount of technical debt they create is massive, the overhead in communication is too high, and the people aren't invested in the products the code they are creating. Technical debt: As an oversee talent, cleaning up the technical debt created by (now left) US employee, we can see that both yours and mine experiences are anecdotal. Slack Communication Me: 1. Question A, 2. Question B, 3. Question C US employee: answers half of the question B, general ramblings about A and C Zoom communication Me: Lets get on zoom and figure this out right now US employee: lets schedule the meeting on 2 days, throw a PM and two more developers in it, so they can waste time too So, I guess, lets agree that generalizations are not ok.
- SgtBastard 7y ago
  You just made the parents point about the overhead in dealing with offshore devs is too high to be productive. Perhaps you’d like to expand on this technical debt you’re cleaning up?
edem 7y ago
There is a flip side to this: check my other comment. "Overseas talent" is not invested in the product because most companies don't treat "overseas talent" as equals. My experience as "overseas talent" is that US companies bring their own technical debt which they are powerless to fix and they blame us for their incompetence.

tasty_freeze 7y ago

Your experience is vastly different from mine. I've worked at 7 different silicon valley companies in my 35 years of employment, though the last 20 have been at two particularly high flying companies. Approximate half the staff is foreign born, some US educated and most foreign educated. I see no pattern to skill levels between US born and foreign born coworkers. Maybe it is because these companies draw top talent, and can afford to pay for it, I have this experience. You might be cynical and think I'm a "meh" level employee who is easily impressed, but my pay grade and annual reviews say otherwise.

almost_usual 7y ago
The comment suggested people who still lived overseas. The foreign born talent you work with lives in the US now. If anything it suggests the best talent moves to the US for the better salary and quality of life.
- tasty_freeze 7y ago
  My company has significant teams in many countries. Daily I work with people from all over the world. I've certainly worked with some excellent people who worked in China and in India and had never set foot in the US. But you are right, the majority of the people I work most closely with are in the US and so I know their characteristics the best.
runT1ME 7y ago
You are both making different points, because I agree with both of you. Some of the best engineers I’ve worked with have been foreign born, and I’ve also seen disasters happen due to outsourcing to foreign talent. These are two vastly different groups we are talking about. The best foreign engineers almost always end up working for well paying product companies. The other end of the spectrum, foreign or US, often end up at contracting companies that compete on price.

edem 7y ago

I've worked for US companies and I'm amazed how low quality their talent is in general compared to talent in Europe. Then I realized that US companies can afford to buy top 2% talent in the EU, but most of them can't afford to do the same in the US. So this leads to a very frustrating situation where you're smarter than most of your US colleagues, but they still tell you what to do because they hired you.

tharne 7y ago
Just as in other fields, Europeans tend to outpace the U.S. when it comes to book smarts, but lag when it comes to things you can't/don't learn in school. They're great at building exactly to requirements, but less skilled at handling the unexpected or coming up with something novel. There's a place for both skill sets, fortunately.

break_the_bank 7y ago

I think if you play the game of finding the lowest bidder to do the job you'll definitely run into folks who aren't good on both sides of the pond. If you pay the buck you can hire excellent engineers in India, China, Eastern Europe & other parts of the world. No wonder Amazon/Google/Microsoft have a large developer presence in these markets.