46 ms·

> "It's a lot of work to become a good software engineer, and also requires certain talents and traits that not everyone has (just like doctors and lawyers)."

> "It's a lot of work to become a good software engineer, and also requires certain talents and traits that not everyone has (just like doctors and lawyers)." Is it? The chorus of HNers who say they didn't need to go to college to get software development jobs and telling others to skip college says otherwise. The significant quantity of bootcamp graduates also landing jobs does too. While both of those categories worked hard too, it's still an order of magnitude less than "doctors and lawyers".

0xBABAD00C 7y ago
> less than "doctors and lawyers" I didn't say it's the same quantity of work, if you read my comment carefully. Nor is that the main argument at all. I said it requires special traits, which it does. People who skip any formal education and are still great developers are very rare, and those people definitely have special skills and talents (e.g. you can't point out >99th percentile gifted kids in music or math and claim that it's "easy").
- ThrowawayR2 7y ago
  > "Nor is that the main argument at all. I said it requires special traits, which it does." Okay but I'd dispute even that. Students are going to CS programs these days for the money, not out of any particular talent or passion and a number of HNers echo that anytime the topic comes up. Beyond that, many of the boot camp grads come from other non-technical professions; I just saw an HN article about an airline attendant who became a developer (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21902079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21902079), for pity's sake. To be honest, I'm not sure the special traits needed is any greater for a significant number of development jobs than say, for example, an auto mechanic.
  - NeverFade 7y ago
    Did you read the blog you linked? Her job title is "R&D Content Engineer". Her job description as detailed in the post: > I get to learn things and then write it up in a technical blog in order to teach others about code In other words, she's a technical writer. Much respect to her and her big job transition, and we need more people like her. However, she is not the best example to support your argument that "SWE is so easy, anyone can do it, even non-technicals like flight attendants!". BTW I have no doubt there are examples of non-technicals who became actual SWEs working on non-trivial projects, but they aren't that many. Even folks like her, who switched to a technical role (even if not SWE), are pretty few and far between.
    - ThrowawayR2 7y ago
      > "Did you read the blog you linked?" Did you? Try reading the "My First Dev Job" and "Life as a Junior Software Developer" sections. She didn't become a writer until later.
      - NeverFade 7y ago
        Nice try, but her "first job" as a "junior engineer" lasted for only a few months, and then she became a technical writer and stayed in that role since. Check out the dates in the blog. She just started her bootcamp in fall 2017. By spring 2018, she was already a technical writer.
        deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
        ThrowawayR2 7y ago
        That's kind of an insulting assumption about the individual involved but, okay, if you want to be pedantic about examples, there are plenty of other possible exemplars previously posted on HN: https://dev.to/nprimak/getting-started-as-a-self-taught-engineer-free-ebook-p58 https://dev.to/nprimak/getting-started-as-a-self-taught-engi... https://dev.to/thecaitcode/why-not-having-a-cs-degree-is-awesome-he6 https://dev.to/thecaitcode/why-not-having-a-cs-degree-is-awe... https://dev.to/taeluralexis/how-i-landed-my-first-web-developer-role-without-a-degree-or-bootcamp-lessons-learned-resources-tips-39ag https://dev.to/taeluralexis/how-i-landed-my-first-web-develo... Have fun picking away at them.
        NeverFade 7y ago
        I haven't made any assumption. Unlike you, I read the post, instead of just linking it as if it supports my arguments.
        ThrowawayR2 7y ago
        No rebuttal for these that you could manage, I see, nor are you gracious enough to admit that my general point was correct.
  - 0xBABAD00C 7y ago
    > Okay but I'd dispute even that. Well, and you'd be wrong. Here's my anecdote against yours: I'm a hiring manager at a large tech firm, and I see lots of candidates with CS degrees and even some years of experience, who can't code well at all. Definitely not at a level to make comparable pay to partners at law firms :) > Students are going to CS programs these days for the money Yes, and many of them are not good software engineers at all. > I just saw an HN article about an airline attendant who became a developer You know, there are gifted people everywhere. If someone taught themselves enough programming to make it to "partner at law firm" level compensation range, they are naturally talented and have the right combination of personality traits (which is rare, the specific fact that this person was a flight attendant or hair stylist or whatever is irrelevant). > bar is any higher for a significant number of development jobs than say, for example, an auto mechanic I don't know who you are and what you do or don't know, but for high-paying serious tech jobs this is completely false.
    - NeverFade 7y ago
      > Yes, and many of them are not good software engineers at all. Companies are very well aware of this fact.
    - ThrowawayR2 7y ago
      I think you're laboring under a misconception here and as a consequence we're kind of talking past each other. The post author is quoting Dan Luu, who brought up "doctors and lawyers" but that's not really the topic of the blog post; the post author himself started out at fairly low pay (Take a look at the "making more money" link, he started his career out at $65k pay and I have rather good reason to know that the FAANGs were paying much more than that). So, the subject is not "high-paying serious tech jobs", just run-of-the-mill programmers.
nmfisher 7y ago
> While both of those categories worked hard too, it's still an order of magnitude less than "doctors and lawyers". Having been to law school, I'd argue that's more about regulatory barriers than inherent complexity. Coming from a family of doctors, I also suspect that medicine is the same, though I couldn't say so first-hand. That's not to say that regulation is unnecessary. If a bootcamp grad makes a snafu, a widget might not render correctly on a website. If it's a lawyer or a doctor, someone could die or get screwed out of their life-savings. Regulation is there to verify that they've all met the threshold. I don't really have a problem with that. But I recognize that it doesn't make one "harder" than the other.
NeverFade 7y ago
> The significant quantity of bootcamp graduates also landing jobs does too. Bootcamp graduates aren't really "software engineers" yet, let alone good ones. They require close mentorship by a software engineer to get to a point they can do useful work unsupervised. That guy who mentors them did take several years to learn his craft. These bootcamp graduates may eventually become good engineers, but it will take a few years. So either way, it takes several years to become a good software engineer, just like GP claims. Also, I'm not even sure how many "bootcamp graduates" are landing good industry jobs. I mean no disrespect, but generally most jobs that can afford to be selective prefer experienced engineers or graduates of 4 year programs. Finally, I'd love to see some numbers, but I don't see a massive flood of bootcamp graduates landing jobs in the industry. They are relatively rare in all places I've worked at.

0xBABAD00C 7y ago

> less than "doctors and lawyers" I didn't say it's the same quantity of work, if you read my comment carefully. Nor is that the main argument at all. I said it requires special traits, which it does. People who skip any formal education and are still great developers are very rare, and those people definitely have special skills and talents (e.g. you can't point out >99th percentile gifted kids in music or math and claim that it's "easy").

ThrowawayR2 7y ago
> "Nor is that the main argument at all. I said it requires special traits, which it does." Okay but I'd dispute even that. Students are going to CS programs these days for the money, not out of any particular talent or passion and a number of HNers echo that anytime the topic comes up. Beyond that, many of the boot camp grads come from other non-technical professions; I just saw an HN article about an airline attendant who became a developer (https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21902079 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21902079), for pity's sake. To be honest, I'm not sure the special traits needed is any greater for a significant number of development jobs than say, for example, an auto mechanic.
- NeverFade 7y ago
  Did you read the blog you linked? Her job title is "R&D Content Engineer". Her job description as detailed in the post: > I get to learn things and then write it up in a technical blog in order to teach others about code In other words, she's a technical writer. Much respect to her and her big job transition, and we need more people like her. However, she is not the best example to support your argument that "SWE is so easy, anyone can do it, even non-technicals like flight attendants!". BTW I have no doubt there are examples of non-technicals who became actual SWEs working on non-trivial projects, but they aren't that many. Even folks like her, who switched to a technical role (even if not SWE), are pretty few and far between.
  - ThrowawayR2 7y ago
    > "Did you read the blog you linked?" Did you? Try reading the "My First Dev Job" and "Life as a Junior Software Developer" sections. She didn't become a writer until later.
    - NeverFade 7y ago
      Nice try, but her "first job" as a "junior engineer" lasted for only a few months, and then she became a technical writer and stayed in that role since. Check out the dates in the blog. She just started her bootcamp in fall 2017. By spring 2018, she was already a technical writer.
      - deleted 7y ago
        [deleted]
      - ThrowawayR2 7y ago
        That's kind of an insulting assumption about the individual involved but, okay, if you want to be pedantic about examples, there are plenty of other possible exemplars previously posted on HN: https://dev.to/nprimak/getting-started-as-a-self-taught-engineer-free-ebook-p58 https://dev.to/nprimak/getting-started-as-a-self-taught-engi... https://dev.to/thecaitcode/why-not-having-a-cs-degree-is-awesome-he6 https://dev.to/thecaitcode/why-not-having-a-cs-degree-is-awe... https://dev.to/taeluralexis/how-i-landed-my-first-web-developer-role-without-a-degree-or-bootcamp-lessons-learned-resources-tips-39ag https://dev.to/taeluralexis/how-i-landed-my-first-web-develo... Have fun picking away at them.
        NeverFade 7y ago
        I haven't made any assumption. Unlike you, I read the post, instead of just linking it as if it supports my arguments.
        ThrowawayR2 7y ago
        No rebuttal for these that you could manage, I see, nor are you gracious enough to admit that my general point was correct.
- 0xBABAD00C 7y ago
  > Okay but I'd dispute even that. Well, and you'd be wrong. Here's my anecdote against yours: I'm a hiring manager at a large tech firm, and I see lots of candidates with CS degrees and even some years of experience, who can't code well at all. Definitely not at a level to make comparable pay to partners at law firms :) > Students are going to CS programs these days for the money Yes, and many of them are not good software engineers at all. > I just saw an HN article about an airline attendant who became a developer You know, there are gifted people everywhere. If someone taught themselves enough programming to make it to "partner at law firm" level compensation range, they are naturally talented and have the right combination of personality traits (which is rare, the specific fact that this person was a flight attendant or hair stylist or whatever is irrelevant). > bar is any higher for a significant number of development jobs than say, for example, an auto mechanic I don't know who you are and what you do or don't know, but for high-paying serious tech jobs this is completely false.
  - NeverFade 7y ago
    > Yes, and many of them are not good software engineers at all. Companies are very well aware of this fact.
  - ThrowawayR2 7y ago
    I think you're laboring under a misconception here and as a consequence we're kind of talking past each other. The post author is quoting Dan Luu, who brought up "doctors and lawyers" but that's not really the topic of the blog post; the post author himself started out at fairly low pay (Take a look at the "making more money" link, he started his career out at $65k pay and I have rather good reason to know that the FAANGs were paying much more than that). So, the subject is not "high-paying serious tech jobs", just run-of-the-mill programmers.

nmfisher 7y ago

> While both of those categories worked hard too, it's still an order of magnitude less than "doctors and lawyers". Having been to law school, I'd argue that's more about regulatory barriers than inherent complexity. Coming from a family of doctors, I also suspect that medicine is the same, though I couldn't say so first-hand. That's not to say that regulation is unnecessary. If a bootcamp grad makes a snafu, a widget might not render correctly on a website. If it's a lawyer or a doctor, someone could die or get screwed out of their life-savings. Regulation is there to verify that they've all met the threshold. I don't really have a problem with that. But I recognize that it doesn't make one "harder" than the other.

NeverFade 7y ago

> The significant quantity of bootcamp graduates also landing jobs does too. Bootcamp graduates aren't really "software engineers" yet, let alone good ones. They require close mentorship by a software engineer to get to a point they can do useful work unsupervised. That guy who mentors them did take several years to learn his craft. These bootcamp graduates may eventually become good engineers, but it will take a few years. So either way, it takes several years to become a good software engineer, just like GP claims. Also, I'm not even sure how many "bootcamp graduates" are landing good industry jobs. I mean no disrespect, but generally most jobs that can afford to be selective prefer experienced engineers or graduates of 4 year programs. Finally, I'd love to see some numbers, but I don't see a massive flood of bootcamp graduates landing jobs in the industry. They are relatively rare in all places I've worked at.