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This is very possible. Japanese was my first foreign language. I could read a lot of Chinese while having no idea how to pronounce it. Furthermore, once I lear

by csa 7y ago

This is very possible. Japanese was my first foreign language. I could read a lot of Chinese while having no idea how to pronounce it. Furthermore, once I learned some fairly basic grammar in Chinese, I could read some texts with a fairly high level of accuracy. All that said, I’m pretty sure I sub-vocalized in Japanese. I will also say that there are words in both languages where I have forgotten the pronunciation of certain characters, but I remember what the characters mean. Thinking more about this some more, I’m pretty sure that there is a conceptual and/or visual “sub vocalization” that I have experienced where I clearly knew what something meant, but the words to say it in any language didn’t readily come to my mind. Specifically, there are concepts in Japanese (esp classical four characters combos) that I almost certainly didn’t know the pronunciation of, but I knew exactly what they meant, and the idea didn’t really directly translate into English (e.g., 不惜身命, which was use by Takahanada/Takanofuji when he became yokozuna).

Mirioron 7y ago
>Thinking more about this some more, I’m pretty sure that there is a conceptual and/or visual “sub vocalization” that I have experienced where I clearly knew what something meant, but the words to say it in any language didn’t readily come to my mind. Isn't this a common occurrence when you just can't think of a word, but it's on the tip of your tongue? Another thing that's similar to this would be all the symbols we run into in real life. Things such as traffic signs, trademarks, settings buttons, hamburger menu etc.
- csa 7y ago
  Not really. Tip-of-the-tongue definitely is a part of symbolic knowledge/cognition. That said, what I am speaking of is much more complex. The example I gave for Japanese, while most educated native speakers would have known the pronunciation, the meaning was not obvious. As a non-native speaker, the translation was something like "with the devotion of a Buddhist monk", but that doesn't really convey the intensity of the phrase. Even today, when I try to translate it into English, my explanation does not do the phrase justice. When I try to explain it to not-so- linguistically-gifted Japanese people, I can provide a gist fairly easily (just as in English), but the weight of the phrase is tough to convey. In English, I might equate this to when someone uses just the right Latin or Greek term. The literal translation is fine, but the depth of the meaning is almost impossible to describe while being almost palpable to those in the know.
  - Mirioron 7y ago
    We consider it a tip-of-the-tongue moment when the word we want to say actually exists. However, I think the process by which this works is the same or very similar in which your translation problem works. You have a concept in your mind that you are unable to properly translate into words. You know what you want to say, but you just don't know the right words.

by csa 7y ago

Mirioron 7y ago

>Thinking more about this some more, I’m pretty sure that there is a conceptual and/or visual “sub vocalization” that I have experienced where I clearly knew what something meant, but the words to say it in any language didn’t readily come to my mind. Isn't this a common occurrence when you just can't think of a word, but it's on the tip of your tongue? Another thing that's similar to this would be all the symbols we run into in real life. Things such as traffic signs, trademarks, settings buttons, hamburger menu etc.

csa 7y ago
Not really. Tip-of-the-tongue definitely is a part of symbolic knowledge/cognition. That said, what I am speaking of is much more complex. The example I gave for Japanese, while most educated native speakers would have known the pronunciation, the meaning was not obvious. As a non-native speaker, the translation was something like "with the devotion of a Buddhist monk", but that doesn't really convey the intensity of the phrase. Even today, when I try to translate it into English, my explanation does not do the phrase justice. When I try to explain it to not-so- linguistically-gifted Japanese people, I can provide a gist fairly easily (just as in English), but the weight of the phrase is tough to convey. In English, I might equate this to when someone uses just the right Latin or Greek term. The literal translation is fine, but the depth of the meaning is almost impossible to describe while being almost palpable to those in the know.
- Mirioron 7y ago
  We consider it a tip-of-the-tongue moment when the word we want to say actually exists. However, I think the process by which this works is the same or very similar in which your translation problem works. You have a concept in your mind that you are unable to properly translate into words. You know what you want to say, but you just don't know the right words.