3 ms·

Until very recently, using "he" in an article was considered sexist because it assumed the subject was a men. So the recommendation was to use "he/she". Today,

Until very recently, using "he" in an article was considered sexist because it assumed the subject was a men. So the recommendation was to use "he/she". Today, using "he/she" is considered transphobic, as in this SE case, since it assumes the subject is binary. So the present recommendation is to use "they". Is this an accurate representation of the current state of affairs? What's the proper pronoun to use today, if you don't know the actual gender of the subject, for example because you talk about a hypothetical situation? Aren't people who identify as other pronouns (xe, zer, ve, aer...) upset by the use of "they"? Is "they" truly generic and can be used in all situations?

sitharus 7y ago
Not entirely. For many centuries singular ‘they’ had been used when gender is uncertain or unknown. In the last hundred years or so some (primarily American) language teachers decided that singular ‘they’ was wrong and adopted ‘he/she’. See https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they... for a history.
deleted 7y ago
[deleted]
rdtsc 7y ago
> Aren't people who identify as other pronouns (xe, zer, ve, aer...) upset by the use of "they"? Is "they" truly generic and can be used in all situations? I think that’s the case here. They are upset because they would like to be called by the specific pronoun they pick. Using ”they” erases their identity and contributes to discrimination. Now in hypothetical situation I don’t see how “they“ could be problematic. I have seen authors default to “she” but mostly in positive and neutral contexts. Then to “he“ for negative contexts. What I mean is if the hypothetical context is a about an astronaut flying to Mars it might be a “she” but if it is a criminal robbing a bank it would be a “he”.
- Izkata 7y ago
  > Now in hypothetical situation I don’t see how “they“ could be problematic. "They" has gotten an additional meaning, it's one of the picked pronouns alongside xe/etc, which is why some people consider using it to still be using the wrong pronoun.
  - rdtsc 7y ago
    Hmm. You’re right that does complicate things. In that case I can’t think of any obvious solution. Perhaps in hypothetical situations just a use random pronoun generator. Though in that case, if it used carelessly in a negative context, it might not have a good outcome and someone might still be offended.
- josteink 7y ago
  > Using ”they” erases their identity and contributes to discrimination. No it doesn’t. That’s just silly. What it does is refuse to call them in a way which deviates from the standard norm and which they are in no way entitled to make demands about. I don’t mind trans-people, but I don’t like anyone policing how I speak. Addressing them how you address everyone else does in no way violate their rights.
josteink 7y ago
> What's the proper pronoun to use today, if you don't know the actual gender of the subject, for example because you talk about a hypothetical situation? I find myself rejecting the whole notion of preferred pronouns as a grammatical error. Pronouns are generalist grammatical objects, and you can’t claim one by yourself, and thus make the object into being a individual object. Also the arguments made here resonate with me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21901346 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21901346 I’m all against discrimination, but there is no “right” to be called by your preferred pronoun.

sitharus 7y ago

Not entirely. For many centuries singular ‘they’ had been used when gender is uncertain or unknown. In the last hundred years or so some (primarily American) language teachers decided that singular ‘they’ was wrong and adopted ‘he/she’. See https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they/ https://public.oed.com/blog/a-brief-history-of-singular-they... for a history.

deleted 7y ago

[deleted]

rdtsc 7y ago

> Aren't people who identify as other pronouns (xe, zer, ve, aer...) upset by the use of "they"? Is "they" truly generic and can be used in all situations? I think that’s the case here. They are upset because they would like to be called by the specific pronoun they pick. Using ”they” erases their identity and contributes to discrimination. Now in hypothetical situation I don’t see how “they“ could be problematic. I have seen authors default to “she” but mostly in positive and neutral contexts. Then to “he“ for negative contexts. What I mean is if the hypothetical context is a about an astronaut flying to Mars it might be a “she” but if it is a criminal robbing a bank it would be a “he”.

Izkata 7y ago
> Now in hypothetical situation I don’t see how “they“ could be problematic. "They" has gotten an additional meaning, it's one of the picked pronouns alongside xe/etc, which is why some people consider using it to still be using the wrong pronoun.
- rdtsc 7y ago
  Hmm. You’re right that does complicate things. In that case I can’t think of any obvious solution. Perhaps in hypothetical situations just a use random pronoun generator. Though in that case, if it used carelessly in a negative context, it might not have a good outcome and someone might still be offended.
josteink 7y ago
> Using ”they” erases their identity and contributes to discrimination. No it doesn’t. That’s just silly. What it does is refuse to call them in a way which deviates from the standard norm and which they are in no way entitled to make demands about. I don’t mind trans-people, but I don’t like anyone policing how I speak. Addressing them how you address everyone else does in no way violate their rights.

josteink 7y ago

> What's the proper pronoun to use today, if you don't know the actual gender of the subject, for example because you talk about a hypothetical situation? I find myself rejecting the whole notion of preferred pronouns as a grammatical error. Pronouns are generalist grammatical objects, and you can’t claim one by yourself, and thus make the object into being a individual object. Also the arguments made here resonate with me: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21901346 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21901346 I’m all against discrimination, but there is no “right” to be called by your preferred pronoun.