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There's much ballyhoo made about the ignorance of the conservative base and the misconceptions they hold due to the fake news and conspiracy theories that circu

There's much ballyhoo made about the ignorance of the conservative base and the misconceptions they hold due to the fake news and conspiracy theories that circulates within their social circles. But I see the ignorance of the left-wing base as just as dangerous. The idea that there's a capitalist conspiracy to trick the populace into believing that free markets are better for public welfare, and that price controls like minimum wage and rent control harm the public, is extremely widely accepted. Left-wing misconceptions about economics are even more consequential than right-wing populist ideas about vaccines. They have the critical mass of support needed to turn into policy in the most economically important housing markets in the US.

wahern 7y ago
There's is a conspiracy, just like there's a conspiracy regarding global warming. In both cases academics use science and math to advocate for, in an unfortunately obtuse manner, policies that are politically infeasible if taken at face value. And academics being academics, they won't get behind watered-down, compromise measures as that would seem like capitulation on the truth of the matter. While none of this is secret, these groups definitely do plot, both formally and informally. Also, the anti-vaccine movement seems more leftish than rightish as it seems to correlate with higher incomes and education (paradoxically), and over the past several decades higher income and college educated brackets have strongly shifted Democratic.
- lotsofpulp 7y ago
  > education Obviously not good education. I see anti vaccine nonsense from both sides, with the common theme being contrarian and not trusting big government or corporations, and thinking highly of themselves because they think they have some insider scoop on what is going on.
eesmith 7y ago
You are strawmanning. 1) Does Piketty's "Capital in the Twenty-First Century" advocate a conspiracy? Quoting it Wikipedia entry: "The book's central thesis is that when the rate of return on capital (r) is greater than the rate of economic growth (g) over the long term, the result is concentration of wealth, and this unequal distribution of wealth causes social and economic instability." That is, there's no need for a conspiracy to get the results we see, and leftists like me don't need to appeal to conspiracy theories. 2) You mention "believing that free markets are better for public". But what's pushed isn't a "free market" - what's pushed is a lack of constraints on those who control capital. Few who push for a free market also push for loosening constraints on labor. Taft-Hartley should be seen as offensive to a real free market. So-called "free market" advocates protest minimum wage laws, but omit mentioning that labor power, when not hobbled by restrictive US laws, would be the free market solution. As an example, the Nordic countries don't have minimum wage laws. Instead, minimum wages for a field are set by collective bargaining, which is possible because of stronger labor unions in those countries. As you can see, I don't believe that "price controls like minimum wage" are the right solution to that problem.
- CryptoPunk 7y ago
  1. Ironically, you just strawmanned me. I never said all left-wing economic theories are "conspiracy theories" or fallacies, or that all left-leaning people are susceptible to such theories. But to your strawman, Piketty's observation turns out to be entirely explainable by real estate: https://medium.com/the-ferenstein-wire/a-26-year-old-mit-graduate-is-turning-heads-over-his-theory-that-income-inequality-is-actually-2a3b423e0c#.cdpw0fizt https://medium.com/the-ferenstein-wire/a-26-year-old-mit-gra... 2. I wasn't contradicting your assertion at all. I was just claiming that it's a very common belief within left-leaning circles that economists' claims of the social benefits of free markets are propaganda formulated by and pushed for the benefit of a capitalist elite. This conspiratorial view of the economic science is similar to anti-vaxxer theories about Big Pharma and Big Gov being behind the scientific opions on the efficacy of vaccines. >>As you can see, I don't believe that "price controls like minimum wage" are the right solution to that problem. Going back to 1, I wasn't generalizing all left-leaning people. Just as all right-leaning people don't believe in anti-vaxxer theories, not all left-leaning people believe in price controls like rent control and minimum wage.
  - eesmith 7y ago
    If you aren't strawmanning then your characterizations like "the ignorance of the left-wing base" and "Left-wing misconceptions" are not informative as you don't give a guideline how influential or proportional they are. The specific validity of Piketty's observation is irrelevant. I mention it as an example of an argument which is not based on the "idea that there's a capitalist conspiracy". Focusing on the weaker conspiratorial argument and leaving out any more substantive arguments = strawmanning. Criticizing sweeping language for its imprecision is not strawmanning. You switched from "The idea that there's a capitalist conspiracy to trick the populace into believing that free markets are better for public welfare" to "a very common belief within left-leaning circles that economists' claims of the social benefits of free markets are propaganda formulated by and pushed for the benefit of a capitalist elite". What makes something a "conspiracy"? Because your latter formulation doesn't sound like a conspiracy to me. My position is that people who advocate for a "free market" but don't advocate removing the existing severe restrictions on labor power aren't really promoting a free market, but rather want to give more power to capital owners.

wahern 7y ago

There's is a conspiracy, just like there's a conspiracy regarding global warming. In both cases academics use science and math to advocate for, in an unfortunately obtuse manner, policies that are politically infeasible if taken at face value. And academics being academics, they won't get behind watered-down, compromise measures as that would seem like capitulation on the truth of the matter. While none of this is secret, these groups definitely do plot, both formally and informally. Also, the anti-vaccine movement seems more leftish than rightish as it seems to correlate with higher incomes and education (paradoxically), and over the past several decades higher income and college educated brackets have strongly shifted Democratic.

lotsofpulp 7y ago
> education Obviously not good education. I see anti vaccine nonsense from both sides, with the common theme being contrarian and not trusting big government or corporations, and thinking highly of themselves because they think they have some insider scoop on what is going on.

eesmith 7y ago

You are strawmanning. 1) Does Piketty's "Capital in the Twenty-First Century" advocate a conspiracy? Quoting it Wikipedia entry: "The book's central thesis is that when the rate of return on capital (r) is greater than the rate of economic growth (g) over the long term, the result is concentration of wealth, and this unequal distribution of wealth causes social and economic instability." That is, there's no need for a conspiracy to get the results we see, and leftists like me don't need to appeal to conspiracy theories. 2) You mention "believing that free markets are better for public". But what's pushed isn't a "free market" - what's pushed is a lack of constraints on those who control capital. Few who push for a free market also push for loosening constraints on labor. Taft-Hartley should be seen as offensive to a real free market. So-called "free market" advocates protest minimum wage laws, but omit mentioning that labor power, when not hobbled by restrictive US laws, would be the free market solution. As an example, the Nordic countries don't have minimum wage laws. Instead, minimum wages for a field are set by collective bargaining, which is possible because of stronger labor unions in those countries. As you can see, I don't believe that "price controls like minimum wage" are the right solution to that problem.

CryptoPunk 7y ago
1. Ironically, you just strawmanned me. I never said all left-wing economic theories are "conspiracy theories" or fallacies, or that all left-leaning people are susceptible to such theories. But to your strawman, Piketty's observation turns out to be entirely explainable by real estate: https://medium.com/the-ferenstein-wire/a-26-year-old-mit-graduate-is-turning-heads-over-his-theory-that-income-inequality-is-actually-2a3b423e0c#.cdpw0fizt https://medium.com/the-ferenstein-wire/a-26-year-old-mit-gra... 2. I wasn't contradicting your assertion at all. I was just claiming that it's a very common belief within left-leaning circles that economists' claims of the social benefits of free markets are propaganda formulated by and pushed for the benefit of a capitalist elite. This conspiratorial view of the economic science is similar to anti-vaxxer theories about Big Pharma and Big Gov being behind the scientific opions on the efficacy of vaccines. >>As you can see, I don't believe that "price controls like minimum wage" are the right solution to that problem. Going back to 1, I wasn't generalizing all left-leaning people. Just as all right-leaning people don't believe in anti-vaxxer theories, not all left-leaning people believe in price controls like rent control and minimum wage.
- eesmith 7y ago
  If you aren't strawmanning then your characterizations like "the ignorance of the left-wing base" and "Left-wing misconceptions" are not informative as you don't give a guideline how influential or proportional they are. The specific validity of Piketty's observation is irrelevant. I mention it as an example of an argument which is not based on the "idea that there's a capitalist conspiracy". Focusing on the weaker conspiratorial argument and leaving out any more substantive arguments = strawmanning. Criticizing sweeping language for its imprecision is not strawmanning. You switched from "The idea that there's a capitalist conspiracy to trick the populace into believing that free markets are better for public welfare" to "a very common belief within left-leaning circles that economists' claims of the social benefits of free markets are propaganda formulated by and pushed for the benefit of a capitalist elite". What makes something a "conspiracy"? Because your latter formulation doesn't sound like a conspiracy to me. My position is that people who advocate for a "free market" but don't advocate removing the existing severe restrictions on labor power aren't really promoting a free market, but rather want to give more power to capital owners.